Clementine's Garage
Clementine the Cat
 
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Yellow R4
 
Réparateur d'automobiles

1975 Renault 6TL - the fine line between brave and stupid

Update time! Burning through the jobs on this one, it's a joyous thing to work on for the most part. I've never worked on a car where every nut and bolt I encounter comes undone with minimal effort and no need for WD40 or Plusgas or similar.

The weather today has been stunning, an ideal opportunity to sort out the floors if everything is dry. The cabin was dry inside for the first time since I've known the car and given that it rained last night that means something I've done has stopped the water getting into the front.

One small section of the front wing rail needs a small patch letting in.
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On examining the car today I found most of it was completely dry apart from the top of the passenger side wing rail to A-pillar juncture. This was still really wet. It was only when I hit it with the wire wheel revealing some perforations and saw water spurt out that I realised what was going on. Water must have been getting in through the gutters before they were taped, running down the A pillars and pooling in this pocket, some overflowing and going down the A pillar into the footwell on the passenger side and, given the amount of water that came out, the rest reaching a point where it overflowed and came through the dashboard. After 8 hours it was still weeping water, there must be a lot hiding in there.
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One thing I did want to do was paint the hidden bits and some of the more serious rusty bits. To stay true to the car's appearance I wanted to get a close match to the faded green off the shelf but not go to the trouble of getting it mixed specially to match. I want my repairs to be visible. I chose a satin paint so it wouldn't look too new against the rest of the car and took a chance that this exterior metal paint would be suitable. No spray paint, this has to be brush painted.
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After the corner had been extensively cleaned up and all perforations found I had to wait a while for it to stop leaking enough water for me to paint it. Even then, any movement of the car made more water emerge so this will need a small retouch. Still surprisingly solid here, I'm going to have to let some fresh metal in to stabilise things properly.
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The other side is much better, only one perforation. The rust here is mostly caused by the accumulation of acidic conifer sheddings which was absolutely packed into this area on both sides, without that and the gutter holes this would likely need no work beyond waterproof paint.
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Cleaned back the bottom of the sill too. Quite pitted but solid metal, I couldn't blow any holes through it so was happy enough to give it a top coat.
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Then the floors, I wanted to get it done the first dry day I had and this was that. Cleaning all the surface rust off was easy enough but not ideal a job to do inside the car, made a lot of dust. Really surprisingly solid, there were a total of three pin holes which need a small blob of weld. For now it's all painted to keep it solid.
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Next was time to get the engine out, I hoped. Really easy access for everything. I removed the front valance/undertray which is also in superb condition but does need a fresh coat of paint and underseal to keep it that way. Steering rack came out, just 5 bolts none of which put up much of a fight.
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Mike put some sealant on the leaking rear window seal, that should stop all the water ingress into the cabin.
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Got both front calipers off, and the dust shields which are still intact. The calipers look to be in need of a refurb but don't appear to have any glaring issues. Still a good amount of material on the discs and pads surprisingly and again all this came apart very easily.
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That is, until it came to doing the ball joints so I could free the hub and remove the driveshafts from the gearbox. I want to remove all the mechanical components anyway to get them cleaned and painted and any worn out parts replaced. In the process of trying to remove the balljoints the CV boot became dislodged and leaked grease everywhere, including all over my leg and straight through my work trousers, which was nice.
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Thing is, those ball joints would not budge. I've known stubborn ball joints before but these are something else. They broke the splitter!
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Sod it. I was quickly running out of daylight and patience by this point so I tidied up and called it a day. Not bad though, a week of work on a car that's been untouched for 20 years and it's only just thrown a difficult job at me.
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Shoved the bonnet on to protect the engine bay a bit before we shut up shop. The inner arches smell of cow poo, an unpleasant side effect of a farm car.
 
You can just unbolt (or if original drill the rivets out) of the ball joints and then bolt them back in afterwards, it makes life much much easier.

:)
 
These must be the original ball joints then as they're rivetted in. I shall drill them out if I can to make fitting the replacements easier, wish I'd've thought of that today!

The car's most recent history is marked at about 51,000 miles and the clock currently shows about 30,000 miles. That probably means it's done 130,000 miles on the original ball joints. Are these cars really known for being that tough mechanically?
 
If you need to replace them your best off getting them off whilst the suspension is still together, I have the same tool as the one you broke, I tend to load the pressure on with that then hit the ball joint with the BFH last initial is hammer to shock the joint apart!
 
Well done
there are quite a few subtle differences on the 6tl mechanical bits and the similar 4 with 1108 engine basically the 6 finished in 78 79 just as the R1128 gtl 4 started production
I do have the genuine parts book for all pre 1990 renaults which gives the part numbers for cross referencing
From experience although the 6 has dropped off most recent parts books at motor factors etc giving them numbers to work with or an eBay search will produce results
I have worked exclusively on renaults since leaving school in 1976 and can explain what parts will interchange if you get stuck feel free to ask on here or ring me contact number is on my profile page
Re reading your first post notice there was an orange rodeo parked by your R6 where you collected it from any idea where it ended up as i've got 2 myself
well only one now i've stripped one down
 
I will shout if I come unstuck with parts sourcing, good to know there's a decent pool of knowledge to scoop from.

I don't know what happened to the Rodeo, it was missing all the front end panels and apparently in very poor condition, I expect it was scrapped as that was the intention with all the cars. The 6, the Mk2 Granada and the Panhard were all rehomed, the Dyane stripped for all useful parts (it was quite badly rotten, apparently) but I don't recall anyone saving the Rodeo.
 
Was at the unit today so it's time to have another go at getting this engine out along with some other jobs. Car was still nice and dry inside and as a bonus there was no longer water getting in under the rear seats, just one little puddle on the boot floor from the tailgate. I'm happy that I'm resolving the water leak issues as a result of that.

Even so, I did notice there was a drip of water clinging to the inside of the rear passenger door surround inside the car. Prised the trim off and got busy with the wire wheel on the gutter to explore more fully. At the front it was still as bad as it was, drier now and more stable by the look of things.
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Above the drip of water what started as a small hole became an explosion of rust dust and a large portion of the gutter disappeared. That was a bit disheartening.
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I spent some time on the driver's side gutter too, that had the same perforation to the flat surface but the majority of the vertical portion of the gutter and roof were still intact. I applied some paint to keep things stable and the hole that had appeared in the roof edge on the passenger side now has a duct tape patch for the short term.
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Not too bad though, it's repairable. Our neighbouring mechanic and general car fettler had a good look and a prod and seemed confident it was all repairable just fiddly and time consuming. He also had the inspired suggestion of using seam sealer to protect and stabilise the gutters until I can get them properly repaired, it's not a long term fix but it should prevent water getting in where it's not wanted in the short term.
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Foolishly, I then wanted to explore what I suspected was some filler on one of the rear door jambs. I know better than to prod but I prod anyway.
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Hmm... rivets. There was a smell too, I've encountered it a couple of times on ex-farm cars. There's this bizarre habit of mixing dung with filler to get a stronger repair but in very small quantities, the smell that comes off is quite unique. Quite a lot of filler was scooped on this side.
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When it was cleaned back it look like the car had been armour plated. I'm guessing there's not a lot of metal left under this patch and it will need repairing properly in the future. For now it's solid enough, I've chased some rust out and applied paint, but not before investigating a suspicious bleb on the rear arch adjacent, revealing a large shallow dent and more pin holes.
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Right then, let's check the other side because there's cracks and strange circles over there. Same story, but no dung-filler this time, just unadulterated white resiny powder. I did have one large problem in that I couldn't remove the latch on this side which has had the strange star head fittings replaced with regular cross head bolts, one of which just turns and turns.
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It wasn't unexpected to find repairs like this on this car but I still wasn't happy about it because it gives me that bit more work to do further down the line. It could have been a lot worse, normally when you chase out a lot of filler there's nothing underneath bar some brown lace. The other big job today was the engine removal, this could have gone better if the instructions in the Haynes book had been better than "just take out the engine" because we ended up unbolting the mounts in a really stupid way and added more time to this job than we should have.
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The engine bay looks nice and solid and tidy and the car is comically light without the engine and gearbox in there. Since all the ball joints are worn out the easiest way to remove them was to saw through the posts on them to get the driveshafts out. One had been replaced at some point but the other three were all still sporting rivets and all the boots had perished or split.

The engine and gearbox is tiny and weighs very little, a welcome thing for moving it from outside to in the unit. I'll find out if this engine is any good when I get it taken apart and find out what exactly is stuck. I've had a surprising number of offers for replacement engines if need be and depending on cost it may make more sense just to replace this unit rather than rebuild it, we shall see.
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That's all for today. Not sure when I'm working on the car again, contracted an absolutely killer cold just as we were getting the engine out so I'm taking things a bit easy for the rest of today and tomorrow.
 
I've had various offers of lights and engines and bits and bobs, it's proving surprisingly easy to find people with parts to help this little car out and that's a super thing, big grins. Unfortunately, the plight of self-employment means I'm stuck on doing anything about most of these offers until my next batch of work is paid for. Doesn't mean I can't get jobs done on the Renault without spending cash, still lots of stuff to be getting on with.

Yesterday I took the end plate off the engine in the hope that I'd be able to get to a big nut on the crankshaft and get some movement in it. No such luck, but a rather worrying appearance of what look like dried out emulsified oil. Camshaft is nice and free so no worries there.
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Then I tried, and utterly failed, to lift the engine to drain out the oil from the sump plug. A strap slipped and it all just canted over and poured various liquids all over the floor. Didn't even have enough cat litter to mop it all up properly, sacked it off as a bad job and went home.
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Today, I went back in to the unit with Mike, a second pair of hands was very welcome at times and meant I got to drain the oil out successfully. Except what came out had the appearance and consistency of weak gravy. Didn't smell as appealing. Evidence of emulsified oil and a vague smell of petrol which was a little odd.
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After reading the Haynes booklet of lies and deceit I decided to just apply logic to removing the gearbox from the engine. Seriously, the instructions in this manual are appalling, every time I try and get help it has such useful information as "just remove the gearbox." and when looking for how there are no pictures, there are no instructions just another vague statement... infuriating. Anyway, living in the bell housing was a really big spider.
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Clutch lever freed off nicely after a little effort and the internals look in reasonably good order. There is corrosion on the thrust bearing and I've not yet taken the clutch off to inspect it. The splines on the shaft here are really good so I'm pleased about that. There were quite a few cobwebs in here too, most of which just sorted of floated away when the engine and gearbox were parted from one another.
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"The gearbox can be easily lifted by one person, even if bending quite low." So I tried to pick it up, thinking it would weigh nothing and managed to nearly headbutt the gear lever. THANKS HAYNES. It requires some effort to pick up, it weighs a small amount, it is not floaty light.
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Got busy with the degreaser on the engine, was assaulted with the aroma of more animal dung as I was cleaning the outside of the sump. Lovely. Very little paint left on the block but no evidence of serious oil leaks just lots of storage detritus.
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Set that aside for the day and took a couple of pictures to illustrate a couple of worn out bushes on the front shock absorbers. I'm guessing these will be easy enough to source. They're pretty worn out, especially on the driver's side. Brake pads definitely need replacing too, not a lot of material left on them. Calipers look like they should clean up fine once removed from the car.
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Mike also showed me how to safely test the starter motor which, after an initial reluctance to do much, appears to work perfectly fine engaging and disengaging as it ought. Whether it's good enough to work on the engine not just on the bench remains to be seen. Not sure how to test the alternator.
 
Good to see the work progressing despite setbacks. How is your French? There is a good site called La 4L de Sylvie, which offers illustrated guides to various R4 jobs where the Haynes manual can be less than helpful.
 
My French is, how you say? le bad. ;) Happily, Chrome has a translate function when I'm browsing French and other-language sites which has helped me understand a few bits and pieces, along with there being a surprising number of blogs with pictures for R4s, much of which is interchangeable info.

Recently the workshop that the Renault calls home has been jam packed with work so my own cars are sidelined as a result and my own business has perked up so I've not had free time to do anything other than a recent trip to Leeds to collect a full NOS exhaust system for the 6 to replace the grotty lacy one currently fitted.
 
Exhaust - acquired from a chap in Leeds for £60. Full system from (but not including) the manifold to the very tip of the tail pipe.

Headlights - made contact with the chap that has a pair which he'll be sending over in the near future. Quite a relief to have secured these, more so when they arrive.

Water - there appears to be no water getting in or leaking out of the car now so it would appear things are watertight

Gutters - you can buy sections of gutter for VW Type 2 that looks similar, if not identical, to those found on the Renault. I've also found someone willing and able to do the gutter repairs from scratch, offering him sections of preformed gutter to work with should reduce the time and the cost considerably. It's not a repair I feel confident to undertake myself just yet.

Engine - Not had opportunity to get any further with it. The bores have been soaking in Plusgas, I haven't got around to purchasing a diesel jerry can and since I'm running the Xantia on veg oil I can't syphon fuel off to use to this end either.

Tyres - sourced a good set of second hand ones from a family friend which are available once he's got his project far enough to swap the new wheels on. Another French car helping out here as the tyres come from an AX.

All this means there hasn't been much in the way of visible progress at all lately. The project is ticking over in the background.
 
You say sending over as lhd and rhd headlamps different patern for mot have just been offered a load of 6 parts cheap can pass details on Inc lamps
 
I was very fortunate and have been sent a pair of RHD square 6 headlights which I collected this afternoon from the post office. Work has been keeping me super busy and Life has been sucking all my hard-earned out so I've not had any playtime cash for a while, this might continue for good time longer yet which is rather annoying.

Here's my current known want list anyway:
> 1 door lock rubber grommet
> 4 ball joints for front upper and lower suspension arms
> Lower front shock absorber bush (both sides)
> Rear shock absorber (possibly, one looks wet)
> front caliper rebuild kit or replacement calipers
> clutch cable
> Auxiliary/alternator belt
> 1108cc radiator
> Clutch cable (end snapped off thanks to corrosion)
 
Post-dentist malaise today, not sure if it's down to a bad reaction to the anaesthetic or just a bit of ick that I've contracted, leaving me feeling pretty run down and tired at any rate. So I'm sat here watching old episodes of Fast 'N Loud and it's given me some thoughts for the Renault. Namely, I'm going to get the body rubbed down and given a fresh coat of lacquer below the gutter line. Above the gutter line there's going to be a lot of visible repair, so I reckon a contrast paint would be super for the entire roof and around the windscreen, either a flat colour or something ridiculous.



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The car is solid enough to pull this sort of thing off and if I get the body lacquered I do keep the majority of the wear and tear I like without it getting worse. Lot of elbow grease to do it, but shouldn't be too expensive. Should be interesting to see it applied to a tiny French car rather than a massive 60s station wagon too, I think the 6 has the right sort of styling to pull it off sucessfully.
 
It was suggested recently by a friend that the 6 would make a neat little van. I had a very quick play on Photoshop and it turns out said friend was quite correct and I'm very taken with the idea.
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Puts me in mind somewhat of a Simca 1100.
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I have a lot of love for little vans and, to my knowledge, there never was a Renault 6 van variant, that's a hole that was competently filled by the Renault 4. That said, even the diminutive Renault 5 got a commercial version in the form of Heuliez's Le Car Van.
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Feeling quite enthused I got a chance to go to the unit today briefly to have a look at the Renault and see more realistically what's likely to be involved in this van conversion I want to undertake. It did highlight another option for it which is to just panel over the rear side windows and door handles but leave the doors fully functional thus giving the appearance of a van with the a little more functionality of side loading ability. It would also mean the rear seat could be used for passengers if they really had to travel with me, though experience tells me that it's not the nicest way to travel.

Either way, I did decide a smooth side panel is better than a recessed one on account of the rear door design. You can see the window reveal is stepped, it might be enough for laying the fresh steel on top of and welding to, making life far easier than butt welding and minimising the need for filling. I have two spare doors so I can use segments from those to patch in the big door handle recesses so that I don't have to try and make the piece needed to match.
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To weld the door up there's a couple of areas that need more than just tacks putting in. The top of the door has quite a large gap between it and the gutter and this would need to have a thin strip let in to bridge the gap, as shown here in blue.
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For the leading edge it's a little more complicated. I'm considering removing the hinges completely and letting in a filler panel though I don't know whether it should be perpendicular to the door or curved, the former is definitely the easier option. If I leave the rear hinges attached it makes lining the door up easier but you will get two squares sticking out which will likely detract from a tidy finish on this section. Again, the blue points out roughly what I'd need to fill with fresh metal.
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There are other considerations too. The rear arches both sides aren't brilliant looking, I suspect I'll have to clean these up and possibly let in some patches before welding the doors shut. You can also see that the rear wing has flash rusted through the paint. Since I've got some paint on its way to me I'll get this sorted when that arrives.
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The inside of the doors is easy to resolve if I leave them functional, I'd remove the window winder mechanism and the door card and replace it with plain vinyl covered ply or hardboard. If I weld the doors shut the same would apply but I'd also remove the latch and the rubber seal which is just glued to the door, a strange solution compared to other cars I've worked on but one that looks like it was Renault's way of doing things. I would also need to cut a small section out of the bottom of the door to allow access to the bolt that attaches the body to the chassis should it ever need to come off in the future.
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The recess for the window on the inside of the door is quite deep, plenty of depth to apply sound deadening material and trim fixings for a vinyl covered panel.
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Inside I'll likely remove the parcel shelf brackets but keep the trims as they are. I'm not sure what to do about the small section of headlining that goes into the rear quarter window surround, it depends what happens to the fabric tension when that section is unglued. I do plan to leave the full length headlining in, I see no point destroying or cutting it down to suit the van at this stage.
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If it were a better vehicle to start with I'd restore it nut and bolt. It's a rare car but it's not valuable without me sinking a lot of money into it that I don't realistically have. As a van, I can get it back to being a useful, solid little vehicle for much less money and not much more effort. For what I need in my collection, it will be a more sensible use of this little car.

My final consideration on van options is to weld up only the driver's side rear door, panel all the windows and keep the passenger side door as a functional side loading portal. We shall see.
 
I'm meeting a mix of opinions on the idea across the various forums I use. Then someone posted this Ami van, a conversion that's fairly easily undone should you wish to. I think the 6 looks better as a van and would be more useful to me.

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Realistically, if someone were to buy the car from me they'd only use it as a parts donor and that would bring the numbers down further. It's possible that when I look into this in more detail I decide against modifying into a van. At the moment I've not done anything other than plan the idea out so no harm has been done.
 
Good to see we are all making progress on our projects
Thought this pic might be of interest IMG_4073652381569.jpeg
 
Yes it is! That's awesome :D Van plans are shelved for the time being, if I do come back to them it'll be like the Ami is done as it looks teh part and is easy to revert to original. I have a little update today.

Bank Holiday Monday, traditional for doing stuff you want to do just because. Who am I to argue with tradition? Started small by polishing the hubcaps, because I could. Interestingly, shortly after getting the Renault home I found a set of NOS hubcaps for 20 Euros on Leboncoin. I didn't buy them because I didn't think they were too important but now I'm thinking they could have been a wise purchase. Mind you, I have heard Leboncoin is difficult to buy from if you're not in France.
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That wasn't too hard to do. I might do the bumpers to match. Next, turned my attention to the roof. If I'm to do anything with the Renault I need to sort this roof out. Shiny new set of hammer and dollies were available to me and with the headlining out I could hopefully get to the worst of the dents. First I had to work out how to remove the headlining itself, I was expecting it to be held into the window surrounds, which it was on the rear quarter lights that were easy to remove. At the back, there's a plastic strip attached to the headlining that pushes under a metal groove/flange thing, the only way I could see to remove this was to carefully pry it out with a screwdriver.
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That meant I could work out how to remove the sides. Unlike the rear plastic strip, the sides have a barbed groove/flange that the headlining fabric is stuffed into, the fabric held up with conventional wires across the width of the shell. For the most part, it was easy to remove without damaging the fabric and I was well on track to removing the headlining whole which is not always possible.
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Unfortunately as I got closer to the gutter damage over the front doors I found the headlining had gone brittle and no matter how careful I was it tore on the edges in a way I won't be able to repair or refit. Thankfully, it looks like an easy headlining to make and refit. The nail in the coffin for the original was when I got to the windscreen. I had intended to leave the windscreen in and carefully bundle the headlining on the dash board but as I free the fabric from near the A pillars it just tore across the line of the windscreen seal. I was expecting it so wasn't too mortified though I'm aware I'm now going to have to remove the windscreen if I want to fit a new headlining.
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With the headlining out I could see if there was access to the dents. The good news is that there is some access, the bad news is that the strengthening beams get in the way so I'll need to get the slide hammer on some of the dents I can't get to. Managed to very nearly get the profile sorted on the drivers side, a light skim of filler after repairing the gutter should see this resolved nicely.
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On the passenger side I had equally reasonable success with the roof skin pulling back in line with the strengthening beam as it ought. You can see the two obvious dents where the strengthening beam is in my way. Again, some filler will be inevitable on this, but not a great deal.
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I had a go at straightening the stainless gutter trims, it's hard going but it's possible to get them reasonable again. I suspect I'll just hang on until I can find replacements. There wasn't anything more I could really do on the bodywork today, I was happy enough with this so far. Turned my attention instead to the engine which is still locked up. Decided to take the clutch off and it could really do with replacement as expected. Then I took the sump off to see what I could find in the bottom of the engine.
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Sludge, and obvious water contamination. It does look like the bolts I need to get at the remove everything are all where I need them to be which is fortuitous so the next task will be to carefully dismantle and clean the innards, find out what damage there is and replace parts or engine as necessary. Oil strainer/pick-up is also pretty gunged up, I suspect it will clean up well enough.
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I need Mike's experience with engines for me to be confident to undertake the next stage, it'll also be easier with two of us working on it. He was unavailable so I assessed what else I could do and realistically it wasn't a lot. The Princess could be turned around so I could make a start on the displacer replacement next weekend, but a flat battery and me being unable to push the car on my own put paid to that. Happily I did see that the condition of the metal replaced and waiting to be replaced hasn't deteriorated so I feel a little more comfortable about that for now.

I did a bit of panel beating on the bad rear wing of the Lancia Flavia but then ran into access problems. Ideally, I need to chop off the badly repaired bottom section of the rear wing, beat it back into shape off the car and then reweld it, a big job but one that deserves to be done right.
 
New paint arrived today. After work I decided to get myself over to the unit to try it out. It seemed thin enough in the tin and having used these sorts of paints before you can sometimes go straight from the tin to the car. I prepped the bonnet by getting rid of dirt, loose paint, rust, etc. Then got to work.

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Hmm... that's not great. I've brush/roller painted stuff before with great results, normally apply with the brush and dress out quickly with the gloss roller then let the paint smooth from lightly orange peeled to almost flat. Work fast and it's a fairly low effort job. A cut and polish afterwards sees it very smart indeed. This paint doesn't do that yet so I need to flat the panel back and try again when I've found the right thickness and technique. Given that the old pale flat green was brush/rollered on going by some of the less well finished areas it feels right to be doing the same, I don't want to get the car professionally spray painted, that's not what this is about.

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The colour is great, I'm really happy with that, I just need to spend more time on the application.
 
I'll be very happy when your post goes onto Page 4! It takes about half an hour to get to the bottom of your page:laughing:

I've never seen a car brush painted before and your results are not bad at all. Perhaps if you used a primer, then sand it with 600 sandpaper and then paint it, it will be smoother? Maybe you're doing that already? Just asking because I've no experience with this type of paint procedure.
 
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