Alternator wiring

[Hawkins]

I've just acquired a R4 ex-la poste van here in France (1987) . It has been standing unused for a number of years having been driven into a ditch and snapping the anti roll bar. I'm trying to get the engine going to see what condition it is in before making a decision on what to do with it.
Some of the wiring seems to be detached from the alternator, a friend has lent me a Haynes manual but the wiring diagram doesn't correspond with the colours of the wires that exist. I'm wondering if anyone can help.

When viewing the alternator (Paris Rhone) from the rear (opposite end to the pulley). At approximately 11 o'clock there is a terminal with a pair of black wires (sharing the same ringed terminal connector) but not secured in place as the securing nut is missing. Do they belong here? Between this terminal and 12 o'clock there is a stud which could either be a terminal or just a securing stud.
At about 1 o'clock there are two yellow wires that go into a plastic connecting plug. These appear to be in the correct position. Clockwise working from this there is a blue and brown wire which go into the alternator. (The connections for these must be inside, so I'm pretty certain they are oK)
There are two wires (Green and Red) with ringed terminal connectors hanging free in close proximity to the two black cables. Looking very much like they should be connected to the alternator. Could anybody help please?

My second problem is that the battery cables have been removed. Would I be right in saying that the positive goes directly to the starter motor and the negative directly to the engine block. To make this a little confusing the French post office have fitted a cut out switch on the bulk head with some hefty nuts which I imagine the battery cable would be routed through. Which poled cable would be rooted here, evidence suggests the negative.
Thanks in anticipation of any help
Regards Steve

 

[mr-reno-139]

would love to help but no r4s to look at at moment and my memory certainly is not that good
think could definitley be a case of "a picture being worth a thousand words"
(especially if you are like me typing with one finger)

if you can post pics i am sure between us all we can figure it out

if you have camera on a mobile phone you could send it to me to post if unable to upload to forum yourself (+447973423795) paul

 

[malcolm]

Not the best photos in the world (too dark for the camera to autofocus) but might be a start. There are 2 sets of wires held on by nuts, and the terminals are different diameters so you can't get the little wires onto the big terminal (you shouldn't do the opposite either).

Battery cut out switches are always wired to the earth wire. You are right - big positive to the starter and big earth to the gearbox (normally, but anywhere on the engine would do).

If that doesn't make any sense (and it might not as the colours sound different) the wiring might have changed for later cars. Maybe Bluebell will take some photos of her alternator.

 

[mr-reno-139]

malcolm, think your photo model is sporting the alternator from the Ducellier designer collection

which will almost certainly have big and small terminals in different locations to paris rhone (just to confuse you steve, fun these cars are !)

ps there needs to be two wires attached to + terminal on battery 1 to starter ,another to supply electrics in car etc (including ignition switch etc) needs thick cable on - terminal down to g/ box (probably now via cutout switch)
good luck
paul

 

[Hawkins]

Paul & Malcolm, Thanks very much for your prompt replys and thank you Malcolm for taking the trouble to take some photos, it's very much appreciated. I'll print the pics off and go compare when it's light tomorrow. If I can't fathom it out I'll have access to a digital camera soon so I'll be able to post some pics.
Thanks once again.
Regards steve

 

[Hawkins]

Paul, you must have been posting at the same time as me as I've just read your last post. Not quite clear where the second cable from the positive on the batery goes to; one to the starter motor and the other (supplying juice to the car's electrics) connects to where (I have to admit at this stage I've been a 2cv owner/driver all my motoring life not used to all this fancy stuff!)
Steve

 

[angel]

The second cable from battery (+) goes to alternator (+) terminal.
Note that a cutout switch is always connected to battery (+)! (FIA regulation among others).

 

[malcolm]

We're going to have to differ on this one angel .

The instructions that come with cut off switches sold on the DIY market is to put them in the earth lead. That's mostly so it won't matter if the DIY people that fit them don't make enough clearance between the terminals of the cut off switch and the body and the connections touch the body. If the earth touches the body the switch stops working. Positive touching makes a fire.

Probably the FIA are thinking about what happens if the battery comes out when the car lands on it's roof. Then the cut out is probably best in the positive lead.

 

[Hawkins]

Thanks for additional info. regarding the 2nd cable from the (+) battery to the (+) terminal on the alternator. As soon as I get the digi camera I'll post some pics.
Regarding the cut out switch, it appears that this one connects to the (-) terminal. I've found the negative cable connected to the engine block (maybe g/box, can't remember) it runs to the cut out (though not connected).
In my first post I said I was going to make a decision when I had the engine running on what to do with the van. Unfortunately I've made the decision to not renovate the van. I have a 2cv and a AK400 both which need working on and I'm also working on my house here in France (my marriage could be at stake!) If anybody is interested in having the van to renovate (baring in mind it is located in France) you are very welcome to it. I'll post some pics when I have the camera. If anybody is interested let me know what particular shots you require. I'm located about 3/4 hour from Caen (Normandy) Just to give you an idea of ferry prices I'm travelling back to the Uk on a 5 day return Dieppe/Newhaven for £58. I can put anybody up for a couple of nights if needed. No charge for the van. Forgot to mention that it's Uk registered but no V5

 

[angel]

Yes you are right Malcolm. It is far more difficult to insulate the terminals or ensure that nothing earthed will not touch them. The reason why FIA want it that way is that you must have a working automatic fire extinguisher even with power supply disconnected. So it is not routed on the switch. I have also found instances where routiing the starter motor cable throufh the cut-off switch decreases starting motor power (especially if the switch is inexpensive). Therefore it is preferable for me to leave those circuits outside the switch and it is much easier to do when the switch is on the positive terminal. Slightly off-topic but interesting anyway...

 

[malcolm]

Clementine's Paris Rhone collection had it's first fashion shoot today.

 

[Hawkins]

Thanks very much for the pictures Malcolm. Sorry that I haven't replied before but I didn't realise there was a page 2 to this thread!
I've got a picture I'm trying to upload to this thread but I can't find how to do it. I have no doubt the instructions are staring me in the face! Could someone point me in the right direction please. I have a green cable and a red cable which are not attached.They appear to correspond with your grey and green.
Your picture shows a thick cable attached to each terminal. Are these the thick battery cables (+) and (-)? If so do these attach directly to the batter or via somewhere else?
regards Steve

 

[malcolm]

For posting photos - when you press the reply button to reply to a post scroll down a bit from the box where you type and find the attach photographs button. Browse for the photo on your computer and then upload.

I'm not sure where the wires went - the car attached to that alternator was only here for a day. I think the smaller positive from the battery does go to that connection though. The alternator does have different sized studs for the two connectors, so I guess anything that doesn't fit on the big one will go on the small one.

 

[Hawkins]

Thanks for reply so quickly. Here's the photo.
Steve

 

[Hawkins]

How does this sound?
In my picture;

1.Connect the red and green cable (I'm assuming they're the same as Malcolm's green and grey (perhaps it's pink) to the terminal on the alternator which already has the brown and blue connected (which I'm assuming is the (+) terminal).

2. When I've got the battery cables, connect two (piggy backed, or however else 2 go into to the (+) battery terminal then on the other end, one to starter motor and the other to (+) terminal on alternator.

This just leaves the thick cable which is connected to the (-) terminal on the alternator shown on Malcolm's picture which I'm assuming is a cable to earth?
And just to complicate the issue I've included 3 other pics showing 2 plug in connections. Does anybody know if these have anything to do with the alternator cables?

 

[malcolm]

I think you are spot on with the wiring. On mine there is a yellow lead with a black wrapping from the positive of the battery to the + terminal, and a thick earth wire from the - terminal that connects to the front of the RHS inner wing.

Those other wires aren't alternator related. I don't have them on my car, but I've seen unused connectors on other cars. I'd leave them unconnected and think some more about them if you find something doesn't work.