Dead R21 Savanna 1.9d Needs Help

[nudger2802]

Hi guys and gals, I am a newbie and just wanna say hello to everyone out there first before I come grovelling for help lol.

Anyhow I have recently purchased a 1994 Renault 21 savanna 1.9D for a cheap runabout that I can pile the family in and we all love it to bits but yesterday morning it decidied to die

Ok its done more miles than the starship enterprise but it was running as sweet as a nut before.

I started it from cold and just revved it a little to around 1500 rpm to try and get it a bit warm before we set off and after about 20 seconds it died. I tried re starting it but it seemed very lifeless just spiining over freely and not even trying.

I spent several hours yesterday, taking out the fuel filter to see if its blocked but it seemed brand new, bleeding air out the now disturbed fuel filter bleeding air out the fuel inlet pipe on the injection pump, all fine with plenty of clean fuel although the primer pump on the filter head does feel a little weak.

Still nothing so I tried cracking off the injector pipes to see if they needed bleeding and nothing whatsoever is coming out of them no air no fuel nothing when cranking over.

I am no diesel expert but surely fuel should be being injected when cranking so that the engine will start?

I have tried connecting the stop solenoid direct to 12v and can hear it working fine and have also tried to turn it over with the plunger removed from the stop solenoid just incase but still nothing.

The engine will fire when brke cleaner is sprayed down the air intake and will rev its head off happily like this but no fuel is getting through so it just dies again.

Am I being a plonka and missing the obvious here and have overlooked something stupid or do you guys come up with the same theory as me and think the injection pump is past its sell by date?

Sorry to have waffled on but just wanted to get all the info in from the start.

Thanks

Nige

 

[Greeney in France]

You mentioned the in-line fuel and filters but have you gone back to the tank?
Its quite possible that the fuel pick-up from the tank is blocked there will be a gauze filter in the tank that could have been clogged by the dreaded algae that you get in a damp tank if its been left sitting or using cheap diesel
This is a photo of my 4x4s fuel pick-up when I first purchased it and it had been left sitting for 6 months

 

[nudger2802]

Thanks for the suggestion but i tried to run it straight from a clean can of fuel just in case that was the problem. As i say there is loads of clean fuel getting to the fuel pipe union into the pump but the pump just does not seem to be processing it and pushing it out to the injectors.

 

[mr-reno-139]

hi nige
unfortunately does sound like dead pump if it is lucas/cav/ rotodiesel they can die suddenly
basically same engine as clio diesel of same age can supply one if you are stuck
hope you havent been trying veg oil as only bosch fuel pumps cope with it
good luck as pump replacement involves cambelt removal and no room for error if not refitted correctly (bent valves)

 

[nudger2802]

Many thanks for your help so far guys. Definately think its the pump thats dead. Spoke to a few diesel specialists today and they all come up with the same answer and a hefty price tag to rebuild it. I am certainly not scared of fitting a replacement pump myself but was just wondering if anyone knows if I can replace it with one from another f8q engine other than the 21's for definate. If so what vehicle? 19? clio? kangoo? volvo 440? I just had a quick look on ebay for a pump and there are several on there but there seems to be 2 different types of mounting looking at the pics. One with just bolts behind the pulley and one with a great chunk of cast alloy behind the pulley? Are there 2 types of f8q engine or more? Or does this piece of cast unbolt? Can I replce a lucas cav pump with a bosch one and if so will it bolt straight in and does anyone know the pump timing procedure so i can find tdc at number 1 on the pump before trying to lock it so i can time the engine back up when fitting the belt?

Many thanks,

Nige

 

[mr-reno-139]

hi nige
i have been fixing renault diesels 1.6 1.9 2.1 regularly since r4 s became a rarity in my workshop
basically all older non turbo f8q except bosch will fit and run fine in my experience
do not attempt kangoo or any pump newer than 1996 as will be coded to immobiliser system and pretty useless unless you manage to get all the security shield off with grinder !! not recomended as metal dust will end up inside pump

bosch pumps are better but you would have to change pumps and injector pipes as will not run if you try mixing (pressures are diff )

as far as differences the steel bracket bolts to head and clio one is different to extra 19 21 etc as bonnet is lower and uses shorter belt if poss get bracket as well so you dont need to remove pulley (or risk getting a pumpthat has had hammer treatment !
ther are two types of pulley as well and some have two key ways one for bosch one for lucas ther is also a slotted type which is probably what you have now

as for timing get haynes manual lock crank at tdc find marks on pulleys mark with paint
new belt will have white lines to match
also verify key way angle as if you remove slotted pulley you could be 120 degrees out
if you remove pulley from key way with hammer you will kill pump !so a suitable puller will be needed
later pumps 96 on have horrible internal hex pulley and ignore !!!

hope this helps if you want to phone me number is on my profile as you are a bit too far to pop round for a chat or buy a pump off me

good luck paul

ps lucas cav and roto diesel (and now delphi) are all same type just company name change depending on year

 

[nudger2802]

Many thanks Paul. Was just about to buy a kangoo pump off ebay but will give that a wide bearth now. All seems pretty straight forward just a bit worried about gettin the pump time 180 degrees out like you say with the keyways. In theory if i get an old injector pipe and connect it to number 1 and bend it over in a swan neck and feed the pump with fuel then turn it over by hand when the swan neck moves and fuel comes out i should be 28 degrees before tdc if my memory serves me right from my college days shouldnt I and be spot on for fitting it?

Is there any bleed points on the cav pump itself that you know of?

Kind regards,

Nige

 

[nudger2802]

Sorry Paul one more question, you say about the bracket being lower on the clio, If i got a clio pump and bracket would I then just use the clio belt? or would that not line up on the timing marks?

Kind regards,

Nige

 

[mr-reno-139]

sorry that wont work as tensiner on block is different found all this out when i tried to fit 21 engine to clio 5 yrs ago
clio pump is fine if you use 21 bracket
car will run fine if you get cam timing correct on belt using whit e marks and mount pump using original slot positions marked from old bolts biting into metal
to get exact will require special lift guage screwed into pump
can supply pump for £50 pus postage
but dont mind if you ring me for advice as typing is not my fastest skill and without pics hard to explain exactly

paul

 

[nudger2802]

Thanks a lot Paul. I need the car back on the road asap if I can so I am gonna try and get a pump round the local breakers this morning but if I cant get one I will certainly be in touch. I am gonna pull the plug out the top of the pump and with the engine approx 28 degrees btdc that should give me the comencement of injection and i can see whats happening inside the pump through the plug hole. This will give me a reference point for what to look for when i turn the new pump. That way in theory its imposible to put the pulley on the wrong keyway and get it 180 degrees out. Then as you say when i bolt the pump up if i line up all the old marks where the dirt /bolts have been it should be damn near. Then if i turn the pump 28 degrees to tdc and line all the timing marks on the engine and belt up in theory it should be pretty dam close to cock on. If you see a burgandy renault 21 smokin its arse off and doing 10 mph flat out on its way to west sussex you know it didnt work and I am coming to find you lol

Will a normal 3 leg puller suffice to pull the timing gear off the pump if I have to or do I need a special puller?

Kind regards,

Nige

 

[nudger2802]

Managed to get a pump off a clio eventually so all should be well I hope. Just gotta wait for the lovely British weather to sort itself out now and I can get on with it. The joys of workin outdoors I havent checked on my old pump yet but on the new one there is only one keyway on the shaft (It had the centre part only of the split type pulley on it) and according to the haynes and in the text above mine should have 2 keyways? My old one has got the one piece pulley. In theory if hopefully my pully fits is all I gotta do, line up the timing marks and she should be fine?

Kind regards,

Nige

 

[mr-reno-139]

wasnt allowed on pc by wife over weekend as been busy with domestic family type stuff
glad you have pump
all pumps have only one key way but early one piece pulleys have 2 key ways one for bosch one roto diesel/cav /lucas
there will be 2 marks on outer belt area one marked B (bosch) one marked R (ONE YOU WANT)
as you have got haynes manual
provided you have got new bellt and lock engine using hole in font of block to establish tdc and all marks line up cant see a problem
(forget 28 degrees dont know were that comes from !)
if you are acheapskate and risk reusing belt make sure you can still see original marks if they have worn off DEFINITELY change belt
also check tensioners are not rough or noisy if you are not fitting a kit

regarding getting pulley off be carefull as they can break but as original pump is scrap wedging 2 screwdrivers behind and getting assistant to tap with copper hammer should work
not reccomended for the good pump though so a suitable puller or take pump to a workshop and ask nicely

have fun , im sure you will let us know how you get on

paul

 

[nudger2802]

Its back together! All piped up and timed up spot on new belt, new (if slightly different pump, now has a servo thing for cold start on the front of it), even a new alternator belt, all turns over nice and free off the bottom pulley by hand with good compression as it should be will she start nope. When tryin to spin it over on the starter motor it turns about two or three turns and then the starter motor decided to disengage for some god forsaken reason. Its as if the engine is locking up and the starter disengaging but the engine is nice and free. Only thing I can think is that I am one seriously unlucky git and the starter is now on the way out, just seems funny how its started doin it at that point in time though.

Nige

 

[mr-reno-139]

if you are 100% sure it is timed uo right did all belt marks line up with pulleys etc
if it is only starter problem how about tow starting it
sh*t or bust
then if its ok back to scrappies for starter

 

[nudger2802]

ITS ALIVE It was the starter and still is but I can live with that till payday. I checked it, checked everything again, took the timing belt back off and refitted it just incase I was being simple and had missed something but still had the same result. So i lost my temper and was determined to kill the starter motor and kept flicking the keyswitch till all of a sudden insteadof just wuring after the first initian turns its kept turning and turning and all of a sudden with a ploom of smoke from the exhaust and familiar diesel clatter it came to life. Once the initial smoke cleared and she started to warm up she ran as sweet as a nut. The only thing I have had to do is speed up the tickover slightly cause she kept cutting out when I lifted off the throttle. Oh and the accelerator pedal is sitting a little low so will need to adjust that tommorrow maybe. I let her cool back down and have just been out and started it from fairly cold and popped to the chippy and back (about 2 miles) and everything is fine and its running sweet again.

Many thanks for your help Paul its very much appreciated.

Now just to get round to tidying up the bodywork. I swear the previous owner used the front wings as bumpers lol

Kind regards,

Nige

 

[nudger2802]

I Need Another Pump

Hello folks Just got back off my hols in lovelly Skegness with the entire family and after lugging 7 people a trailer and 15 peoples luggage for the 350mile round trip the old beast is still running as sweet as ever apart from one little snag. That fuel pump I went to all the hassle of fitting and settin up has decided to develop a new feature Its leakin worse than a cullander from around the throttle spindle and top cover plate I guess I have killed it yet again.

Has anyone out there got another CAV pump they wanna sell me to keep the old girl on the road. I need it pretty sharpish as the mot is due in the next couple of weeks and this one has more chance of flyin to the moon than gettin the car through the test. Realistic price please as I have just lost my job and funds are a little tight

Thanks

Nige

 

[pepper]

Burger thats a problem, I used to get my local diesel specialist to cut the old spindles off and weld new ones on but it did cost money I'm afraid.

 

[mr-reno-139]

hi nige
normal problem is only spindles rubber o ring problem nothing special about 50p i have changed them in the past but bosch pumps easier than lucas so unless you still have old pump to play with first i would chat to a specialist as there are no diy dismantling instructoins about that i know of

maybe try citroen / pgo forums as same type of pump used there

alternativly take car for mot now as will be more cost effective to find out now wether changing pump is waste of time (although a major leak may mean refusal to test )

could sell you complete bosch setup , phone me and i will talk you through common mot failure areas to check wether its even worth paying for an mot


paul ( phone number is on my profile )

 

[nudger2802]

Hi again Paul. How much do you want for the Bosch set up with postage? I take it you have the injectors, pipes etc... I am goin over to get the old pump I took off last time tommorrow night from out of my mates garage and as you say was gonna pull the top off that and have a gander to see what I can do. I think its leaking from around the throttle spindle and from the plate thats the top housing of the pump held down by 4 torx screws so will pull the fubar'd one to bits first so I know what I will find and take it from there. The one on the car is litteraly p155ing out although she is still running really sweet. Apart from this leak she should go through the mot I think. The front cross member bushes may get me an advisory if the tester aint had his leg over that morning but should go through, at least I hope so as I dont fancy droppin the cross member down to do them. You wouldnt have a wiper linkage for a 21 lying about would you as I had to bodge mine with cable ties and chemical metal the other day (touch wood its holding together)? Talk about ecenomical motoring lol.

Kind regards,

Nige

 

[mr-reno-139]

hi again !!!
have just sold a R19D engine to a friend of mine to put into a clio he gave me the complete setup back as part of the deal will take £75 + postage
it is def ok as came from a car i sold 4yrs ago and serviced by me since uptil 6 months ago when i pxd it for laguna and broke 19 up

probably got linkage at workshop but not much demand for 21 bits so will look if you are stuck and could send that as well

paul