Blasfemy? A suitable engine!

[4Latas]

Hello!

Thank you for reading my introduction in this forum " from scrap to adventure". I believe the ownership of a classic car involves being some sort of "trustee" to maintain disapearing vehicles ready to be appreciated to the next generation.

In the case of the Renault 4, with its ubiquitous feeling and desing, this is much true. But I also believe we have the right to enjoy our classic, and not just protect it as a piece of museum, ready to be traded in a couple of years time for the latest Xbox game. If we are investing in a vehicle, that should be ultimately to give us pleasure. The Renault 4 was design as a rough workhorse, and I couldnt bare to treat it like a old china too be kept behind a screen.

The proximity of the desert sands of Morocco, with its unknown roads, food experience and people, takes a portuguese group across the desert and camping in beduin tents. I went two years ago, but blew my 845 cc engine. But before that, I rode 3 days in over 40 degrees temperatures.

I am now seaching for a suitable engine to replace, while keeping the old one and a spare to one day, eventually, rebuild it. I was thinking of the obvious choice, the 1108 cc from the R5 and its gearbox...But does any of you heard about anyone installing something more...lets say..." exquisite" from the french manufacturer? I would like to hear your opinion on this. Thank you and enjoy the forum.

............................................

PS> If this idea of the morrocan raid appeals to you, please contact me, I can arrange a "basecamp" in Southern Portugal prior to departure, fully equipped with tools and technicians. But unfortunatelly, only next year. This years raid will start tomorrow...

 

[Azazello]

I think the most common powerful swap is with r5 1.4l engine, and possibly a 5 speed gearbox (from an old r5 too), with a bit of work even an alpine engine will fit, you have a lot of examples and direct experience on this forum.
But I think you have the wrong engine bay (the swap I cited is commonly executed with cleon engines, not between cleon and billancourt engines), maybe a bit of hammering will be necessary.
Wait for other's answers, there is a lot of people here with the requested experience, I am just reporting what I have already read on the forum.
Good luck!

 

[politeperson]

Rebuilding old engines, even a little 850cc Renault engine soon becomes very expensive indeed. At the same time, a quick search reveals many nearly new power units available from damaged cars for less than a few hundred pounds .

I am a big fan of both the 850cc and the 1108cc engine range, but they are all a bit long in the tooth, whilst I still find the style of the Renault 4 fresh.

Therefore I have wondered what MPG and speed might be achieved by fitting a modern petrol engine with fuel injection and electronic ignition.

The cheapest, lightest unit I can find that seems to be readily available is that from the Aygo/C1/107 range, in 1 litre 3 cylinder 54hp form. Kids seem to be writing them off left right and centre.

I reckon one of those in my R4 would keep it going for a good few years, 50mpg+ and 0-60 in around 10 seconds.

I have absolutely no practical advice as how difficult it would be to fit it. It would not be easy but, all I can say is how hard can it be?

 

[Azazello]

I do not know if I'd like such an engine on my car... surely it has some advantages, but lacks of other ones...
I think it should have the same difficulties with the super5 egines regarding engine orientation and accessories position (waterpump etc), but even some trouble given by the different engine length, different mountings and, more important, different linkage to the gearbox...

 

[4Latas]

Thank you so much for you answers! Indeed, I think in modern traffic and for the purposes I intent to , both the 845 and the 1108 are a bit "long on the tooth" ( I like that!). That Aygo/C1 option, is got me thinking now!

I saw some years ago a R4 with a 1.4 from Renault, and I think it might be that one you mention.

About the bodywork, I got an idea, not much to the like of the purists, but overwhelming to the like of who wants to enjoy the R4 with a minimum modification: Make the mudguards able to be removed in one piece, leaving only the chassis. Or something like the Triumph Herald, where the mudguards and the bonnet come out in one piece.

Could even make an extra set of these,weld the mudguards to the bonnet, and keep the originals safe for a possible restoration to original condition. Would have to grind the inside of the mudguards, which is part of the bodywork, but tbhis would be nothing you could sort back to original using a Mig welder. I think this would increase tenfold the space available for the engine and components. The only limitation is the rails of the chassis.

Thanks for your tips, i appreciate this subject of the Renault 4 too much, but there arent many around, only ever saw ONE in the UK! Please keep your comments coming. Have a good weekend.

 

[4Latas]

Here is some info on wikipedia I found about it ! All the applications of the Cleon Engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Cléon_engine

 

[barnfind]

Tilt Front

Thank you so much for you answers! Indeed, I think in modern traffic and for the purposes I intent to , both the 845 and the 1108 are a bit "long on the tooth" ( I like that!). That Aygo/C1 option, is got me thinking now!

I saw some years ago a R4 with a 1.4 from Renault, and I think it might be that one you mention.

About the bodywork, I got an idea, not much to the like of the purists, but overwhelming to the like of who wants to enjoy the R4 with a minimum modification: Make the mudguards able to be removed in one piece, leaving only the chassis. Or something like the Triumph Herald, where the mudguards and the bonnet come out in one piece.

Could even make an extra set of these,weld the mudguards to the bonnet, and keep the originals safe for a possible restoration to original condition. Would have to grind the inside of the mudguards, which is part of the bodywork, but tbhis would be nothing you could sort back to original using a Mig welder. I think this would increase tenfold the space available for the engine and components. The only limitation is the rails of the chassis.

Thanks for your tips, i appreciate this subject of the Renault 4 too much, but there arent many around, only ever saw ONE in the UK! Please keep your comments coming. Have a good weekend.

This tilt front is a conversion that is fairly common in classic Mini circles, for pretty much the same reasons , lack of space around the engine! The drawback is that if you use the steel units welded together, (rather than a replica GRP shell) you end up with a fairly hefty setup, which is almost impossible to hinge (on a Mini) and needs two people to remove to get the full benefit. This is a pain if all you want to do is top up the windcreen washers.
Also in a Mini you need to add in some bracing for the front mountings of the subframe if you are taking out the inner wings in order to maximise accessibility, albeit the R4 wouldn't need this.
You also need to make up some kind of inner mudshield to avoid coating your engine bay with dust/water/mud, etc.
What you really need is to take a mould off a standard front end and then get someone to lay up a complete shell in GRP.

 

[angel]

In theory it seems difficult to fit an engine on a car that has never been equipped with it. In practice it's even more difficult!
The easier part is to physically fit the engine in the engine bay, and then all soon of problems arise, like how to mate the existing gearbox, if it's being used, and if it's not, how to fit the driveshafts, gearshift linkage, cooling hoses, throttle cable, ancillaries...
Now take all of this trouble and combine it with the fact that our beloved R4s have an engine/gearbox layout all of its own (not used on any other car since the Citroen DS went off production). The Mini you mentioned earlier has a conventional transverse engine layout with an "open" subframe, so the only problem is finding an engine/gearbox combination compact enough to fit under the bonnet.
Nothing is impossible, but spending huge amounts of work hours (and a lot of money) to
save very little on fuel (a 1108 needs 6 liters/100km on average) or make the R4 a bit faster (a Mk1 R5 1,4 or Alpine engine does the same or more for a fraction of the cost and fuss), seems pointless to me. Sure it would be nice to have both of them at the same time...has anyone thought about the Mk1 Twingo engine, or fitting fuel injection on the existing 1100cc engine?

 

[iMacThere4iAm]

has anyone thought about fitting fuel injection on the existing 1100cc engine?

I have thought about it, but at the moment haven't got the skills to attempt that kind of modification. One day, perhaps.

 

[4Latas]

It makes a lot of sense what you are saying. That "weight" is something worth of thinking about. You know, some of us like to push the boundaries. But is still nice to talk about this.

All those problems, indeed, bring to the equation " experimentalism" which is something you dont want to mess with, especially when you are knee deep in sand in Morocco.

The ultimate goal obviously would be a "no frills, drop in" solution for the engine, and keep everything as simple as it could possibly be. The 1108 seems to be the "in your face" option due to that layout of thhe Renault 4, with the engine sunk in the dashboard and the gearbox in front of it.

Renault 4s have been a source of testing and experiences since ever I can remember in my country, due to its great numbers. There was a bloke that saw off the back floor and suspension of a 4 FV, and welded the front chassis of an Audi 100 CD with a straight 6! Other used a Yamaha R1 engine in the back seat with a rear quadbike axle and use its gauges in place of the originals ! But these are toys, obviously...

I think the most straightforward and moneywise think to do, is opt for the 1108. Probably, thats what im gonna do...

 

[iMacThere4iAm]

Like you say, in countries where the supply is still plentiful we see much more daring modifications, because hey, if it fails you can just pick up a new one!
Here in the UK, sadly, we are a bit more cautious because we don't want to risk writing off one of the few roadworthy 4s. Here I doubt you'd ever see someone make a remote-controlled R4, or a R4-Limo, or some of the other wacky designs we saw at the 4L-International. Of course I'd love to be proved wrong!