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Saggy torsion bars

markandjames

Enthusiast
Messages
10
Hi there, over the past 6 months the torsion bars have become saggy on my '85 r4

i was wondering if it is safe to jack them up by a couple of turns or are they prone to snapping?

also how difficult iss it to replace all 4 of them?

many thanks james
 
It seems odd that the torsion bars have sagged noticeably over the space of 6 months. What are the symptoms? Is the car leaning over to one side, or the rear end a bit low?

Torsion bars are a pain to replace. The front ones need a 6 foot long spanner and a vehicle lift. Rear ones I haven't figured out yet. The Haynes manual suggests a tap with a soft faced hammer, but I'm sure that isn't the whole truth.

Normally if the car is leaning to one side or if the rear is a bit low it's caused by rust on the rear chassis legs (the inner mounting for the rear suspension).

If the car is sitting correctly but has gone soft and bouncy then the dampers ned changing. That's a much easier job.
 
Clementine I have a similar problem. The car is leaning right in the front, just a little bit but when I brake (or when the car is loaded), how do I put it, the car dives right. Torsion or dampers, what do you think? I also noticed when I brake the car steers right.
 
Probably the problem with the car steering to the right is the front wheel alignment (tracking). If the front wheels have too much toe out (the front of the wheels further apart than the rear of the wheels) it would make the car follow the camber of the road. Drive on the left of the road and the car will steer left, and drive on the right and the car will steer right.
 
Torsion bar removal is difficult and dangerous without the tools as you are playing with parts under tension. For the front bars you will need the Renault special 8-sided spanner and either a special mechanism to counterbalance it against the floorpan (again special tool) or a long tube (and strong arms...).But then the car should be on a ramp or lifter. You cannot use a spanner since the 8-sided anchor lever is tapered and the spanner slips off. Then after you manage to take the tension off the bar you should be lucky enough that the bar has not rusted solid into its spline at the lower wishbone, otherwise you have to disassemble nearly everythting, take the wishboe out and remove the bar on a press or by soaking the whole part in WD-40.Rear bars are somewhat easier (still hard on post-77 vehicles),you will again need a third special tool to "extend" the rear suspension, and much more luck that the bar hasn't rusted on the susp.arm splines... Really a lot of work.
As for "pulling" to one side, this happens also if the upper ball joints (one or both) have play, the car will sometimes pull when accelerating, too. Play on the steering rack and track rod ends,could also be the cause, these cars are rather sensitive to worn components on the front suspension.
 
Speaking of torsion bars!
I just finished yesterday ajusting the rear ride height on my '81. It was not a very easy task, but with some patience and tools I think anybody can do it.
****************Disclaimer****************
First of all (Well, I added this afterwards :wink: ) I'm just sharing my experience here. You by yourself must be very sure of what you're attempting to do and be aware that you're dealing with components that are WAY stronger than any human you can think of. They can cause VERY SERIOUS INJURIES OR EVEN DEATH.
Don't forget to wear your safety equipment.
Make sure your common sense is working fine!
*****************************************

There may be better/easier ways to do this, but here's how it worked for me.
I soaked the bar gears in WD40 (both ends of each one) since sunday and re-applied daily until yesterday when I finally decided (and had the chance) to do the job.
First thing to do is establish the desired ride height. Then measure the current one. The difference between the two you write down. (If you're just changing the bars, the difference would be zero :wink: )
Then you lift the rear of the car and make sure nothing is tensioning the suspension. If you don't have proper equipment for lifting and securing the car correctly, don't even try this.
In other words, the torsion bars are completely relaxed.
It might not be necessary, but I preferred to remove the shocks too.
Then you go and measure again. Find a spot, where you are sure the geometry of both sides of the car is equal. This is of course not an exact measurement, since the arm is moving in a circle, but it is accurate enough for the purpose. Write this measurement down too.
Next step is removing the bars. The bar that commands the right arm is anchored on the left side of the car and vice versa. We used a 2kg hammer and a thick walled aluminum pipe a little smaller in diameter than the end of the torsion bars. Then we hit the torsion bar of the right arm from the left side of the car (where it's anchored), so the bar went out through the arm. It took about 4 or 5 solid strokes.
Brute force does not help much here, make sure pipe is well alligned with the bar, so all the force goes axialy and hit it solidly. Aim well and hit it decidedly, the weight of the hammer will do all the work. Repeat the process on the other side.
With both bars out, proceed to clean teeth of the ends of the bars and their respective counterparts in the arms and the anchors thoroughly. Thoroughly means THOROUGHTLY. Every effort you spare doing this, you will pay later. I used WD40 a metal brush and later a pointy metal piece to scratch out every bit of rust and dirt. Then you oil/grease them well and try putting them back in without force. They will not go completely in manually, but they must engage smoothly at the beginning.
Then it's time to fix the new "lifted" ride height. Take out the piece of paper where you wrote down your measurements. Substract or add (depending if you´re lowering or increasing height) the difference you calculated form your last measurement. Then move the arm to the desired altitude, confirm measurement and hold it well in position. We used a little trolley jack below and some blocks of wood on the upper side to prevent it from going up. Then, with all in place, try to put the bar in manually. (NOOOO, don't hit it yet). It shoud go in smoothly. If it doesn't, turn it on tooth and try again. If it doesn't go in smoothly after turning and turning, you will have to readjust the height just a little bit and try again. Never put your hands near the ends of the bar during this process, always hold it from the flat surface. If anything should slip it could hurt you very bad. Once the bar goes in smoothly and you are sure the teeth of both ends are well engaged, you can go and hit it back into place. Repeat process on the other side.
Another note:
During this procedure, you can damage brake lines, fuel lines etc. Make sure you have all pipes and cables well identified and in sight and protect them properly well before hammering on anything.

Hope this was understandable and useful
:D
 
Enrique, did you remove the bars with the shock absorber still attached? Did you find the bar completely "relaxed" in this position? What shocks do you have? The manuals normally say that you should remove the shock,then hit the bar,but as I have discovered there is still some tension on the arm bushes that is "transmitted" to the bar and prevents it from being removed easily. So my only solution on all post-77 R4s was to remove the bolts of the anchor lever, then free the bar at the arm end by hitting (and hitting and hitting...) and lots of WD-40 ,rather tiring job.
 
Yes, I did remove the shocks. I have Monroe oil-gas shocks. In my case the tension of the bushes was negligible, but I don't know if it could be higher depending on the original position the bushes were installed in.
 
it is a bit low on the back but i dont think it is the chassis as my car is very solid (famous last words). it is low on the drivers side front though, what are your suggestions?

many thanks james
 
How far out is you car? It would be interesting if you drive to an area with a level surface, set the steering straight, then get out, bounce the car up and down a bit, then push the car forward for a couple of yards. Then measure the distance between the centre of the centre cap on the wheel to the lip of the wheelarch on both sides at the front.

Also do you have any handling problems? For example steering to the right or braking to the right no matter which side of the road you are driving on? How about steering one way or the other when you go over bumps?
 
Thats is a good idea, i will get back to you on the measurements

it pulls to the right when accelerating and to the left on overrun back that would be caused by a knacked track rod end, or would it? it also leans leans much more when cornering left (drivers side down) than it does right. would the first step to be to get some new dampers as it probably needs some anyway (1267000 miles)#

many thanks
 
Pulling to the right when accelerating and vice versa is a typical symptom of play in the upper ball joints. It can happen when there is play on the track rod ends or when they meet the rack. I think this is relatively independent of the driver's side being lower (and softer as you describe). This is almost certainly caused by the relevant torsion bar. dampers have nothing to do with supporting the vehicle's weight, take them off and the vehicle will stay at the same height. It seems odd to me that a torsion bar on an '85 R4 will "lose" its setting as it is fixed (except when someone removed it and put it back incorrectly). So check the rear mounting point of the bar (under driver's seat) maybe for breakage, cracks, corrosion etc. I have yet to see a single torsion bar on a R4 fail, however hard the car is used,they usually sag progressively, at roundly the same rate per axle and after many kms. I am waiting for the exception of the rule, though...
 
special tool for front torsion bars.

i have aquired a renault special tool for the front torsion bars.as i have spent the past six years as a technician working for renault .at several main dealers .i have come across lots of special equipment for renaults. i am hoping that my mate who owns a machine shop will copy the tool. i will make this available to anyone who wants it shortly after the new year. thanks to all who replied. i am ,as you guessed a ren fan. i own two ren 5 autos .one is a monoco and the other a gtl. a ren safrane and a clio 1.8 rsi . :yellowre:
 
Re: special tool for front torsion bars.

silki said:
i have aquired a renault special tool for the front torsion bars.as i have spent the past six years as a technician working for renault .at several main dealers .i have come across lots of special equipment for renaults. i am hoping that my mate who owns a machine shop will copy the tool. i will make this available to anyone who wants it shortly after the new year. thanks to all who replied. i am ,as you guessed a ren fan. i own two ren 5 autos .one is a monoco and the other a gtl. a ren safrane and a clio 1.8 rsi . :yellowre:

Can you take a picture of that tool? If you could provide exact dimensions and pictures maybe my father could make one. We have problem with our R4, it's leaned to the right :(
 
I worked at a Renault dealer when the R4 was first introduced into the UK in 1962; fortunately we rarely had to replace torsion bars, usually due to accident damage; it's a long time since I left that company (1973) but ...I would say that without the Renault spanner which clamped onto the "nut" on to torsion bar together with a fairly long extension bar, a lift to work under and at least three strong guys, it would be a very difficult job for a home mechanic, certainly not one I would have attempted without the conditions I've mentioned.....sagging suspension was invariably shock absorbers, steering pulling a mixture of tracking, worn ball joints...and tyres
 
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