Which is better: mechanically sound or good chassis??

[Chris]

Hi everyone,

While my R4 is mechanically very sound, it has had some welding to the chassis. I bought it so I could enjoy the pleasure of R4 ownership while keeping an eye out for a really good example. I was just wondering which is preferable: a tip-top chassis on a 4 with, say, lots of miles on the clock, or a really mechanically sound example with relatively low mileage which has had welding done 'downstairs'...

Any thoughts??


Cheers!



Chris

 

[Steve Hennessey]

Mmmmmmmmm,

I think you would be hard pressed to find a 4 with a chassis that has not had some welding done somewhere. That is unless the first owner had the foresight to waxoil it the week he drove it out of the showroom.

If you have a chassis that has been correctly welded and wax injected then that's OK. However, most people will have just slapped a plate over the rusty area to get the car through the MOT and this type of work is not structurally sound.

Personally, I would go for an excellent chassis (correctly repaired or original) and would not worry too much about the mileage. Secondly, I would consider a car that had an original chassis that needed minor welding to the floor area and the front crossmember.

However, many 4's you look at will have the dreaded rust on the rear chassis legs. This can be done but you need to be quite skilled to do it. I did have a crazy idea once about re-manufacturing these chassis legs. I do have two brand new ones for pattern and they don't look too complicated to make. To fit them you need to remove the body though.

Steve

 

[Cuno]

I second Steve's opinion. I'd much rather switch engine than welding the chassis.

There's a dutch company that sells chassis parts. I'm not sure, but i think they manufacture them also. Check out:http://www.windclassics.nl/

They also sell R4's, there's one right hand drive in very good condition. Maybe something for you guys, driving on the wrong side

 

[malcolm]

I'd agree with Steve on chassis condition unless you have the time and equipment to do your own welding.

For me, general condition is also very important. I like to see an interior in good condition and an absense of modifications. It shows the car has been well looked after, and generally means the engine and other mechanical parts will be good too. That's not to say the car won't be covered in dents. That's normal for a Renault 4.

Unfortuanately economics have to come into play, and it's rust in the rear chassis that tends to send these cars to the scrapyard.

 

[Chris]

Thanks for that, chaps!


You're all kind of confirming what I thought - definately chassis over mechanically very sound. I guess a 4 would have to have been waxoyled from new and/or garaged from new to have a chassis in un-welded, excellent condition. They must be out there somewhere...!! It just seems a shame that while you can get endless 2CV chassis stuff, nobody wants to do the same for the dear old Renault 4.


Thanks again,


Chris

 

[Steve Hennessey]

The problem is that the 2CV had more of a cult status than the 4. When they stopped production, aftermarket spares and enthusiasts willing to do restorations appeared almost overnight.
When I was in the motor trade, I spent many years specialising in Citroens and worked on many 2CV's and their variants. As much as I like them, I have to admit that the Renault 4 is a much better car BUT it never achieved that cult status. It's coming into it's own now, but I doubt if anyone will be able to reproduce a new chassis purely for economical reasons.

The 2CV chassis is not as complicated as our chassis hence the reason that more 2CV's will be on the road in the future than our cars.

Anyone with a 4 should look after their chassis, get it done properly and drown the thing with rust inhibitors so there will be a chance that these two little French oddities will survive together long after we're gone.

Steve

 

[Chris]

Hello again, chaps!


I've been to see a GTL for sale this weekend, and have just arrived home a little confused...

The nice guy who's car it is said that it hadn't had any welding done and had been garaged from knew. I have to say that it was in terrific condition inside and out, but underneath is, as we all know, more important...

I gave the chassis a good prodding with my trusty screwdriver, and it did seem to be in good nick, although it was starting to get dark! However, I did find a weld he hadn't known about. I opened the boot and pulled up all the rubber lining, and the weld was on the left-hand side on the wheel arch, kind of where a rear seatbelt mount would be, (even though the car doesn't have them). Looking into the rear wheel arch from the outside you could clearly see rust and flaking in the same place. Is this a potentially serious problem???

Also, I tried the best I could to assess the condition of the rear suspension mountings. Outer mountings seem fine, but there was some visible rust just forward of the inner mounting on the car's onside. Visible, but not flaky. Will this need addressing in the very near future, and how expensive will it be?????

Overall, the car is in excellent condition - extremely clean inside and out and it drives really well. I believe him when he says it's been garaged from new - otherwise it couldn't be in that good condition. NO bodywork rust at all!!! My only concern is this: no welding has been done to the chassis, (apart from that one small patch I found in the boot/rear wheelarch), but does the visible, but small, amount of rust just forward of the inner rear suspension mounting mean that I'll have to fork out loads of money down the line???? It has 10 months MOT and, according to the guy, the mechanics who carried that MOT out said they hadn't seen such a good R4 chassis in ages....

It's VERY tempting because the car is SOOO clean, but on the other hand I already have my trusty but slightly scruffy R4 which has already had chassis welding done - welding which my local mechanic said had been done to a pretty good standard.

So, do I go for the one I saw today and hope the chassis doesn't require expensive attention, or stick with the one I've got???


Any advice will be greatly appreciated!!!


Thanks!



Chris

 

[Chris]

I've just remembered something!


On normal, outer suspension mountings, there's usually a nut/bolt which obviously holds something pretty important in place. I'm talking about the same bolt you can see Clementine's cat adjusting on the rear suspension mounting repair page of this website, (the repair to Rosalie).

Well, beautifully clean as this R4 I saw today was, (see post above), these two bolts were conspicuous by their absence. Instead, I could only see two, round-shaped small rusty raised 'bumps'. How come this car doesn't have the bolts that I assume are pretty vital???!!!


Chris

 

[malcolm]

I suspect pretty well all Renault 4s in the UK will have at least some rust in the areas you described. These areas are both double skinned and rust from within. The rear wheelarch is quick and easy to repair if it ever needs any more work, so I wouldn't worry about that.

The rear chassis near the inner suspension mounting should only fail the MOT if it became holed, but then would need the suspension removing and jigging for a good quality repair. I'd do that sort of work for £500, but you won't find many people who'll tackle it. It is possible to just patch the rusty area without removing the suspension. This is much cheaper, OK for the MOT, and I'd say it is an acceptable way to keep these cars going. It's not the most structurally sound way, but then I haven't heard of any Renault 4s falling in half.

The chassis actually sounds pretty good from your description, so if the rest of the car is clean and you like the colour then I'd be pretty tempted. With a decent waxoyl it should hopefully last well.

:clementi:

 

[malcolm]

Hmmm, the absense of these nuts and bolts sounds odd. The bolts hold on the suspension so are pretty important. Nuts go on the outside so there should be more than just bumps there. How far from the seller are you? I could probably help more with photos (including rear chassis if you are close enough to take some).

Has anyone else seen anything like this?

 

[Chris]

Thanks for that advice!


I'm a two-hour drive away from this R4, so photos aren't really possible, I'm afraid. I've got to make a decision pretty quickly as the chap selling it has another guy coming to view the car tomorrow. I think it will sell quickly because it's so clean and looks/drives so well, regardless of chassis issues. He's asking £750 for it.

The rest of the car - interior, exterior, all the body-work, bumpers, etc, is in such good condition that I think even if that rust near the rear inner suspension mounting is potentially serious, the car is definately worth buying and looking after. If I did buy it and the rear suspension needed sorting, I would want to do it properly and would therefore come knocking on your door with the £500!!! Of course, that would be a little way down the line as I'm pretty skint at the mo! It would also mean that I would have to sell Esme, and she's done great since I bought her in September, and she's just had a brand new GTL clutch fitted. I wonder what response I'd get if I put her on the 'for sale' part of this forum...??? I would give a completely honest description and look for a decent price!!

The issue of those outer suspension mounting nuts/bolts is an odd one. They're just not there!! Lacking photos, I can best describe what I saw as a rusty 'nipple' where the bolt should be, seemingly pushing out from the inside. Does that help?? As the car passed its MOT just 2 months ago, I'm assuming that such structurally important stuff is checked, and it surely wouldn't have passed if the rear suspension was in danger of falling off...???!!!!


Oh well, time to have a sleepless night, churning it all over in my head!!


Speak tomorrow!



Chris

 

[Steve Hennessey]

Chris,

If you study Clem's photo you can see that the 'raised bumps' are the captive nuts on the suspension mount bracket. There are 3 bolts going through this bracket to hold it to the chassis.

From your description, it sounds as if the car is a good buy. The seatbelt mounts are not part of the chassis, but the body. This can easily be welded properly in the future and a neat job made if it is unsightly.

If the chassis looks fine except for the rust observed on the inner suspension mount, then be prepared to have it welded sometime. It does not sound as if it's an urgent job so dousing this area with plenty of old engine oil will delay the rusting.

If you decide to buy it, have the chassis injected with waxoil or Dinitrol asap and use it on the road and save those pennies to have the rear end welded at your convenience.

It is difficult to assess things properly over the internet so I hope you have not missed anything that maybe Clem or myself would have picked up.

It may be worth going over to see the car again in the daylight. Take a torch with you and a deposit in cash and then make your final decision. At the end of the day, you are not going to buy a perfect car because it's an old one. You will have to spend some money whatever the make or model, and I'll guarantee that when you get it home you'll see something you missed.

Let us know how you get on.

Steve

 

[Chris]

Thanks for that Steve!


Yes, it IS a very good/clean example, and I really do think it's a great buy. It'll be a wrench to say goodbye to the one I already have, and I'll be a little nervous about potential welding expenses, especially as mine has already had all that done...

Concerning the rear suspension outer-mounting nuts. If there are some nuts missing, should it be a relatively simple job to find the right kind of nuts and fit them???

I'll have a think and call the chap later, and let you guys know what happens......

Oh, if you know anyone who's after a 4, my trusty Esme will be available if I buy the one we're discussing - pass it on!!!



Chris

 

[malcolm]

If the nuts are missing they would be easy to replace. They are M8 nyloc nuts (very commonly available) and should be fitted with washers. You might find the bolts need to be replaced as well.

I'd be inclined to have a good look around the area - perhaps the nuts have just been left off by a careless mechanic. The rear wheel would be able to move around with them missing so the car would fail the MOT. Otherwise it's worth checking for bodges - just in case the suspension mounting has been welded to the chassis instead of bolted. That would be a bit bodgy and you'd start to wonder why it had been done.

After fitting the nuts it's worth having the rear tracking checked as these control rear wheel allignment.

 

[Chris]

Afternoon, all!


Just a quick update.

I guess the "...You snooze, you lose..." maxim is actually true!! I hesitated on whether to go for that immaculate, metallic green 4, and someone else snapped it up quickly. They've got a very nice car.

I'm not that upset, honest!! I really needed to have a second look which just wasn't logistically possible with work and everything, and I knew a less overly cautious person would just hand the cash over on first sight.
Alas, I'm not that kind of person!!

Never mind - at least it still proves that there are really clean, garaged from new examples out there...

And anyway, I still have my trusty Esme, new clutch and all, and I'm off in a mo to have two brand-new rear tyres fitted as a peace offering to her!!!

Clem, just out of interest, you said that you'd do a rear suspension mount welding repair for £500. Would you ever consider doing a full restoration like the one on this website, and if so, how much would it be...????



Yours curiously,




Chris

 

[malcolm]

I'll agree that there are still some good Renault 4s in the UK, although they seem to be popping up less frequently these days.

I do take on restoration work, but the Renault 4 really isn't economical to repair. A restoration like Ermintrude's would probably have cost about £5000 if I had been paying for my own time. I'd be really tempted to shop in Portugal if I was after a good Renault 4.

:clementi: