Timing pointer

[iMacThere4iAm]

I need some MORE clarification about the timing marks on the GTL.
The photo attached shows the notch which I had interpreted as the flywheel mark (highlighted with white pencil), but my local mechanic says there is supposed to be a pointer bolted on somewhere. Any ideas?

The other photo is completely unrelated - Last night I was wondering how pop-up headlights would look on an R4 so Ornella kindly modelled them thanks to the magic of Photoshop. I think she likes them!

 

[DavidN]

I really really WISH I could get some reliable info on these marks as well !!!

You won't find a bolted on pointer on the late engines, just these marks everywhere...
See my posting regarding the timing on the F6 van...

http://www.renault4.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3650&

I'm still in the dark which mark means which BTDC.
Actually I'm running it with what I guess is 6°BTDC.

David

 

[malcolm]

Early cars had pointers but the GTL had marks just like yours. I generally line up the notch in the flywheel with the notch in the middle that it's closest to in the photo. If it pinks retard it a little from there.

I like the Frogeye Quatrelle.

 

[iMacThere4iAm]

The mark jumps around too much for any precise measurement, so I tend to set it more by ear. I'm hoping an electronic ignition kit will help stabilise it a little.

 

[DavidN]

The mark jumps around too much for any precise measurement, so I tend to set it more by ear. I'm hoping an electronic ignition kit will help stabilise it a little.

I recently installed the 123Ignition and I can absolutely recommend it!
I had initial problems to find the right setup (there is no pre-programmed advance curve specifically for the F6 engine), but I found a pleasant solution meanwhile.

The 123Ignition indeed helps to stabilize the timing-mark on all RPM's.
As a great advantage I see the improved performance of the engine @ lower RPMs.
It runs smoother, cleaner, and more "stable" than with the traditional distributor and points.
I can drive the F6 in it's 4th gear now at about 40kph (25 Miles) with no problem! Going through tight turns I now rarely have to downshift the car.
All in all the R4 with the elcronic ignition feels more like a "modern" car to drive.

Cheers,

David

 

[angel]

You can just note a series of lines under a layer of gunk immediately below the head of the bellhousing bolt. These are the pointers. You will notice that the two extreme lines are larger, the left hand one (when viewed from the front) is TDC, right hand one is 6 degrees BTDC.

Just to confuse your mechanic, and remind him he is working on a French car, three more marks are visible on the front part of the timing window, also apparent on your photo. Viewing from left to right they correspond to TDC, 6 deg. BTDC, 12 deg. BTDC.

Ornella now reminds me of a Frogeye Sprite!

 

[iMacThere4iAm]

You can just note a series of lines under a layer of gunk immediately below the head of the bellhousing bolt. These are the pointers. You will notice that the two extreme lines are larger, the left hand one (when viewed from the front) is TDC, right hand one is 6 degrees BTDC.

Just to confuse your mechanic, and remind him he is working on a French car, three more marks are visible on the front part of the timing window, also apparent on your photo. Viewing from left to right they correspond to TDC, 6 deg. BTDC, 12 deg. BTDC.

Ornella now reminds me of a Frogeye Sprite!

I know those marks are there, but I can't fit a wire brush in to clean the gunk off!
But I think the mechanic was talking about a marker on the flywheel, not on the bellhousing.

I recently installed the 123Ignition and I can absolutely recommend it!
I had initial problems to find the right setup (there is no pre-programmed advance curve specifically for the F6 engine), but I found a pleasant solution meanwhile.

The 123Ignition indeed helps to stabilize the timing-mark on all RPM's.
As a great advantage I see the improved performance of the engine @ lower RPMs.
It runs smoother, cleaner, and more "stable" than with the traditional distributor and points.
I can drive the F6 in it's 4th gear now at about 40kph (25 Miles) with no problem! Going through tight turns I now rarely have to downshift the car.
All in all the R4 with the elcronic ignition feels more like a "modern" car to drive.

Cheers,

David

I would love a 123Ignition but it is really very expensive, I think I will have to try a £30 PowerSpark kit instead.

 

[DavidN]

...
I would love a 123Ignition but it is really very expensive, I think I will have to try a £30 PowerSpark kit instead.

I know, I know...
I tried an electronic ignition kit that replaced the points in the original distributor first. (Was about 60 Euros).
Worked exactly for one Year. Then all of a sudden it was toast and left me dead in water some place far from home.

I dropped the ~300 Euros for the 123-Kit and never regretted it!
The electronic ignition kit already was "better" then the original setup, but the 123Ignition exeeded it by far.
I combined the 123Ignition with a Flame Thrower coil and that setup is probably the best you can do to your engine.

I've recently participated in a R4 meet-up with about 40 cars.
http://www.rappelquatrelle.de
None of these 4's ran as good (clean / smooth) than mine!

Nevertheless now I always carry my original distributer, a spare coil, sparks and a stroboscopic light plus some tools with me.
You never know...

Cheers,

David

 

[Steve Hennessey]

The mark jumps around too much for any precise measurement, so I tend to set it more by ear. I'm hoping an electronic ignition kit will help stabilise it a little.

If the marks jump around that is indicative of a faulty vaccum unit and worn out bob weight springs. Another, but less unlikely cause, is a worn timing chain / tensioner. The electronic kit you mentioned only replaces the points (my preference is the Boyer Bransden unit that retains the points) and you may find that it's still difficult to strobe. They don't appear to make one for the R4 distributor anyway unless I'm looked at the wrong website. The 123 unit mentioned is the ultimate solution, but the second best solution is an unworn or new distributor fitted with the Boyer Bransden unit.

 

[iMacThere4iAm]

If the marks jump around that is indicative of a faulty vaccum unit and worn out bob weight springs. Another, but less unlikely cause, is a worn timing chain / tensioner. The electronic kit you mentioned only replaces the points (my preference is the Boyer Bransden unit that retains the points) and you may find that it's still difficult to strobe. They don't appear to make one for the R4 distributor anyway unless I'm looked at the wrong website. The 123 unit mentioned is the ultimate solution, but the second best solution is an unworn or new distributor fitted with the Boyer Bransden unit.

How can I test for a worn timing chain/tensioner? Or faulty advance, for that matter?
I have observed that the points move as expected when sucking on the vacuum pipe from the carburettor.

 

[Steve Hennessey]

If the vaccum unit works then that's a positive. The only way to find out exactly if the timing chain is worn is by removing the engine - the easier way is to listen to it and see if it rattles!
To find out if the bob weight springs are worn is to dismantle the distributor. The other thing I forget was that if there is wear in the distributor shaft and/or bushes then that will give an erratic strobe reading.

 

[alewis]

Not sure where I read it but it helped me alot - remove the vacuum advance pipe and block it off while doing the timing that way it wont keep adjusting itself - I seem to think you have to set it slightly one way however !

 

[Steve Hennessey]

Yes, you are correct. Do this for basic timing and then connect the pipe up again to check if the advance is working by revving the engine.

 

[iMacThere4iAm]

Well the mechanic did a terrible, terrible job of setting the timing. When I took Felicia for a test drive, she wouldn't go up hills. Apparently the ignition was too retarded by about 15°.
Once I got my exhaust problems fixed, I re-set the timing 'by ear' using the static timing as a reference, and now she runs just beautifully.

 

[iMacThere4iAm]

I have ordered a cheap electronic ignition kit, but my first attempt at fitting it ended in failure when I somehow got the ignition leads mixed up. I will start again when I can borrow a timing gun (see below) but this time without that stupid mistake. I blame it on this stinking head cold, I can't think straight at the moment.

A few points came to light that were not mentioned in the kit's rather sparse instructions.

• In a late Ducellier distributor with vacuum advance, there is a small toothed cam used to adjust the tension in the vacuum unit return spring. This fouls the magnetic trigger ring that should fit over the original points cam. It looks like you can grind off the part of this wheel that gets in the way without affecting its function, unless your spring is really weak and requires the maximum tension setting.
  
• The old wire from the points to the coil negative side can be discarded, but the wire from the positive side of the coil to the battery stays where it is. The EI kit includes connections to the positive and negative sides of the coil.
  
• The electronic ignition kit does not appear to allow static timing, because the circuitry doesn't switch the coil on unless the engine is turning at several RPM. Hence you won't get any response if you try static timing. Don't try fitting it unless you have a timing gun available!

I will attach photos to illustrate these points once I've got the kit properly fitted.