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Do I need 2 or 4 winter tyres in Germany?

Sprackers

Enthusiast
Messages
353
Location
Tunbridge Wells England
Hi All,

All the interenet says is that I need winter tyress fitted. But does not say anywhere if its 2 or 4?

Technically if I fit two , I have winter tyres fitted therefore conform the the new German Law (2010)

Any German lawyers out there?

Sprackers
 
whatever the law says you will Not use only two winter-tyres for own security! Best to use same type on all 4 wheels. -Reid.
 
Some years ago I was in the Army in BAOR and spent five winters there. Our car didn't have 'winter tyres' just 'tyres', the same ones all the year round. Some Germans I knew had a separate set of Town & Country tyres fitted with studs which they kept for the worst weather. Chains were also popular then. Why not check with the AA?

(Later) I've just checked on the Net what their laws are in winter tyres and it specifically mentions 'winter weather conditions ie ice, snow, slush, hoarfrost' so provided these conditions don't apply, normal tyres are OK. If you do fit winter tyres only to the driven wheels and you are caught in those winter weather conditions, it would appear to me you commit an offense.
 
Hi,

I agree four tyres are better than two.

I have bought two studded tyres that will be a nightmnare in germany oin a dry road.

I have also done some more reading on tyre tread depth and all I can find on the internet is that 4mm is a minimum.

My tyres I have on at the moment are 5mm, but they dont have any snow flake on them but do have more than the minimum tyre tread for winter tyres.

Im sure the Germans will have all their roads efficiently cleaned and spotless and the thought of doing 500km on studded tyres doenst fill me with joy.

Anyone had any first hand experience with this problem.

Sprackers
 
Hi Sprachers! living in Norway we all have experience with studded tyres.These days more and more people are using stud-less as they've
come a long way past years. If you're going to do most of your driving on Autobahn or larger roads you will be perfectly fine using studless
If on occasion you're doing stints into the mountains and valleys on rural roads you might want to go studded.
-get two inner-tubes cut them open tie one end with strong rope and fill up with sand (then tie that end!) put one on each side over rear-
wheels and you should be fine.Rubber won't rub your paint and sand keeps them fairly steady in there.
Go for narrowest poss. tyre to have smallest poss "footprint" for best traction. (More weight per inch)

-If you opt for studded ones, I wouldn't worry about longer trips even on dry roads as newer studded have less stud-height so not as much
noise as earlier. If you can locate some Haakaapelitta (try saying that!) Finnish made winter-tyres of Superior quality.
What I am unsure of is if it at all legal to use studder tyres in Germany--I don't think it is .but please check..
Also remember those M & S (mud & snow) arent Really winter-tyres. more off-roady..but they Are nice rim-protectors :cool:

Do not rely on their roads being cleaned and spotless as you put it.Coming round a bend and low sun now hitting trees by side of road.the shade
soon freezes what was melted water a minute ago and Hey-ho you're p*** your pants going down a ravine..

Chains are for emergency ONLY,after you have ended up in a ditch or going SLOW over a pass then you want to remove them again as they ARE
a pain! -Reid.
 
hi Reid - please could you explain a little more about the sandbag inner-tubes ? Where do they go- are they ballast ?
 
Hik Reid, thanks for the info and I too would like to know more about the inner tube and sand.
Will not the car weigh a ton with a tyre full of sand?
Does the inner tube go over the spikes?
 
Adam-yes they are ballast.
Sprachers-You can fill how much or little you want to,point is to get some weight on the pair of rear-wheels.
Best weight-distribution for slippery icey conditions would be near 50/50 i'd like a little more in the front to
get both best traction,braking and steering. Other nice effect is the car will not be as bumpy as when empty
as you now have weight so shockers and susp works "in the middle" band. Nice,smooth and more predictable.
As I like to drive as if it wasn't icey (smoother steering,braking,gear-changes of course but like to maintain my
usual tempo -Reid.
 
Sparkers, I don't want to scare you. But in Germany you are required by law to run winter tires if temperatures ar below 10 degrees centigrade.
If you do not have winter tires and you end up in an accident or get pulled over, the police is going to have a field day with you in writing fines.
German policemen are no joking matter.
If you are driving in Germany in wintertime please drive on winter tires they need to have the snow flake or the M+S marking.
 
You do know you can buy winter tires that don't have studs in them?

They're much better for general driving.

Then buy a set of tyre chains for the difficult conditions.

Makes life much quieter on the autobahn.
 
In case of icy roads&snow you are oblidged to mount "M+S" tyres on all wheels of your car. These need to be compliant to Council Directive 92/23/EEC Annex II 2.2
Hint: there are tyres that match this and can be used all year.
If you do not have them in winter conditions in case of an accident you will be held liable and loose insurance. So better have them - for your own safety.
BTW: Tyres with studs are forbidden in Germany.
 
Right then I will be fitting 4 winter tyres when I get into Germany and that's that.

Ive already bought in france two studded tyres with rims. for 50 euros which I thought was ok, but the problem as someone said earlier on, just normal snow tyres will be better for driving. I'm looking for two normal snow tyres.

Heres the plan to save on weight but still conver all bases.

2 Normal tyres
2 Snow tyres
2 studded tyres.

So I can mix and match

Start with two normal tyres on front and snow tyres on back.
Then as conditions get worse Snow tyres on front studded on back
and if it get really bad

studded on front and snow on back.

That way I wont spill my beer when going round corners.

and That way I'm only carrying two tyres all the way down. Brilliant.
 
Sprackers.....I would rather suggest you different layout

4 winter tires all around and 2 studded.
Tire chains are also good thing.

Do not know what part of the year you are planing to start and end your journey, and what s your route, but winter tires (with snowflake and M+S sign) will do alright most part of the year, especially in norther part of europe.

They wont be best as possible in hotter part of the year but will do alright.
Especially on R4 which is not heavy car and wont eat winter tire grip during hot time of the year so much as new (heavier) car do.

That way you will be safe on the road in the winter and legal by law in Germany (and other countries)

I bought last autumn Barum Polaris3 wintertires for 20GBP each mounted and balanced on the car. Not so big money (i think)
Tire is good enough for safe ride in wintertime
 
Hi Petak, Good advice.

Im going to be travelling end of January 2018.

My primary concern was driving with snow tyres (4) on, and I presume here, on clean, dry and devoid of snow roads, all the way until I get to Bavaria, but if you think its not going cause too much stress on the car through not only noise, vibration and increased petrol consumption, then I would prefer to not worry and stick 4 winter tyres on from the outset, whilst carrying two studded.

Has anyone done a long journey on dry roads with 4 snow tyres? What can I expect?

Our Planned journey is from Sunny Tunbridge Wells to Zell am Zee, Austria via Chalons-en-Champagne (Champagne) Stuttgart (Bratwurst) and Munich (beer).

Fantastic

Sprackers
 
Hi petak,

Ive looked for Barum Polaris 3 winter tyres but they dont make the correct size??

135/70/13.

Sprackers
 
Hi! Sprackers

Correct tire size for R4 is 135/80/13. or 145/80/13

You can fit 135/70/13 and everything will be alright but it is much harder to find that size and usually they are more expensive than 135/80/13



About your route. That is it. UK to Austria and Germany, no norther part of Europe, Sweden, Norway, Finland?

If that is it than you do not need studded tires. and also they are forbidden in whole europe except high north part of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and even there you can use them if there is big load of snow and ice on the road. Do not know exact law but it is something like that.

Winter tires are mainly made for low temperature (below 7°C) and with lot more small grooves (than summer tires) for good usage on snow and ice as those grooves are dig in snow and ice.

Left is summer tire, right is winter tire
sl-gume-VRED1.jpg


One big difference between summer and winter tire is rubber compound that they are made of.

Winter tire is much softer than summer tire, and that softness is advantage in winter time at low temp.

Bellow 7°C summer tire become more plastic than rubber while winter is still soft.


I live in Dalmacia, south part of Croatia where snow is seen once every 4-5 years and then it is catastrophic.
But winters are also hard with low temperatures that goes below 0°C and lot of rain.
In that conditions you can easily find curve on the road that is icy.

So i am driving on winter tires from start of November till end of March.

Roads are mostly dry or wet from rain, snow is really rare.
I did not feel any difference comparing to summer tires.

Winter tires are little bit louder than summer but you feel difference only first few days. nothing major

If you drive winter tires in summer than you will fill difference, because winter tire rubber compound start to become to soft, like a chewing gum -not that they are sticking all around road - but you can feel that is more wobbly, and not following your steering wheel correctly but with some small delay.
But that will happen if temp is really high - more that 25-30°C (like this days here in Croatia 38 to 40°C)
If you drive it til some 20°C that you still do not feel much.


There is lot more to talk about this topic but i hope you got impression.

From your route, and time of the year, and time period (not more than two months?) i believe you need only 4 winter tires and tire chains (if snow is really big on the road)

practice putting chains on tire while is hot so that you know how to put them on tires when you need then in winter (fingers get really cold really fast when you do that on road side)

Here are my Barum polaris3 winter tires 135/80/13
P8050001.jpg

First one is brand new as i use it as spear tire. 4 others are on the car.

This is how they look after one winter here in Dalmatia
P8050003.jpg
P8050002.jpg
 
Hi Sprackers,
I agree with Petak.
Best put on 4 winter tyres and take a spare to.
And leave the studs at home. They are forbidden on the mainland except Scandinavia.
Take some snow chains with you and indeed practice putting them on on al local golf course :ojust for fun.
A nearby field will do to.
So you know what to do when conditions get rough. Driving on chains is only allowed in snowy conditions.
Good luck with preparing for your trip
 
Brilliant insight into winter tyres Petak,

I never knew studded tyres where illegal on mainland EU. There are so many for sale in France that I assumed it was ok. "So many for sale"....the penny drops.

So 135/80/13 will be fine? then I will go for them and take a spare and throw in some chains too.

I have a list as long as my arm for the prep of the car but obviously tires are the most important, well almost, growing a moustache for the trip is obviously more important and the remembering the corkscrew.

I will begin my search for tyres. It would be nice to get them already on rims so I will check "Le bonecoin" excellent French site a bit like Gumtree, where they sell a lot of R4 stuff cheap.

Ive bought plenty of bits and pieces off this site, however you need to be in France to pick the stuff up.



Excellent advice chaps.


Sprackers
 
good practise for winter-tyres is to wash the rubberside down once in a while as when they roll on salted roads they will get slippery.
use some ordinary degreaser just spray on and it will refresh the treads,you'll see brownish goo running off.also if you get stuck and
can't get going you can spray on some starting-gas to get better grip to get you out of a situation. Remember on new-snow when
just salted,believe it or not-the salt will make it even more slippery until salt melts the snow,so just be a litle aware.
You'll be fine as long as you dont break hard,shift gears,accelerate too hard when in a curve or sloping road.
-Stydded tyres legal in Norway,but there can be a (signed) stud-fee to pay (day/month or winter pass) -Reid.
 
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