Engine from GTL (1108cc) into a TL (850cc)

[GreenGregory]

Hello!

I'm planning a change of my 850cc TL version engine, and replace it by 1108cc from R4 GTL.
Problem is that I haven't got a gearbox from GTL.
Will GTL engine pass into a gearbox from TL - 850cc?

What are the drifferences between construction of engine and other stuff (maybe radiator is placed in other place or anything else..)?
If there are differences, what modifications will be neccesary?

I'm just thinking of the replace, and if it will need to much modifications to do, I will have to give up this plan.

Best regards,
Gregory

 

[mr-reno-139]

would love to help as have done b4, not agood idea unless you have complete donor car or every part available to hand
off on holiday fri so not enough time to discuss now ,will check next week to see what others have to say
note 850 engine runs opposite direction (4 reverse gears not much use)

 

[malcolm]

It is tricky and does really need a doner car. You'd need an engine and gearbox from a GTL as Mr Reno suggested.

The fuel pump on the 1100cc engine is in the same position as the dash mounted handbrake on the 850 cars, so one would need to be moved (electric fuel pump is the easiest way).

When I did the same change I moved the radiator forwards to the GTL position and used the electric fan from the GTL (I think the 1108cc engine is longer than the 850cc engine). That meant the reinforcements needed to be removed from the bonnet (hood) or a GTL bonnet used.

Without the radiator there needs to be a brace between the inner wings to support the gearstick.

The body of the 850 cars will need to be hammered out to make space for the oil filter on the 1108 engine.

It's not as bad as it sounds, but you would need need a 1100cc car to donate the parts that are needed otherwise the other parts you need would be very expensive.

Another point to consider is the weight - the 1100cc engine is much heavier, so while the car is faster it isn't so nice to drive.

 

[GreenGregory]

Thanks for replies !

So I decided not to touch my 850cc engine
I have quite little time, because at first or second week of August, we start Renault 4 Castle Tour project, so then my car have to be finished

You know, the speed of 80km/h is perfect on long drive, but 850cc engine is very noisy.
Have you got any solutions about this problem ?
Does someone tried to make his engine more less noisy?

Best regards,
Gregory

 

[angel]

The previous owner of my '75 had glued Ricofon (the eggbox-shaped black foam used in studios) under the bonnet and on some points on the scuttle panels. It did some sound-proofing but I removed it when I painted it and didn't bother with sound proofing anymore...Keep in mind that an old silencer, even when looking OK from the outside, will promote engine noise because the diaphragms inside will rust and disappear with time.
I will disagree with Clementine about the 1100 engine conversion in two points: In Poland cars are LHD so there is not a problem with the fuel pump.
The 1100 cc engine is not that heavy. Certainly no more than 10 kg from the 850cc.

 

[Bluebell]

You know, the speed of 80km/h is perfect on long drive, but 850cc engine is very noisy.
Have you got any solutions about this problem ?
Does someone tried to make his engine more less noisy?

Gregory

The TLs don't seem to come supplied with all the rubber matting on the floor and wheel arches that the GTLs have. Have you used plenty of old bits of carpet in the boot and mats in the footwells?

 

[David M]

Engine swap

Hi all,
Have been reading posts on this forum for a while, but this thread touches on what I want to do. Sadly, (from a Renault 4 point of view) I live in Australia. Only the first series R4's were assembled here, with the 845 Ventoux motor. There are no GTL donor cars to be had!
I am aware of the other changes needed, and I was thinking of importing the steering and suspension bits as required.
My biggest concern is:
Is it ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to move the radiator from its mounting with the steering rack? I was thinking of using an electric fan mounted on the front side.
I have a perfectly useable bonnet with the early grille which I want to retain.
Thank-you for any replies on this point.
David

 

[angel]

I have seen at least one 1100cc conversion with the large radiator fitted where the 850cc was. It is possible but you should become a little creative to make mountings. If I remember correctly there is room for the electric fan to be mounted behind the radiator. Otherwise use a "pusher" type of fan if you decide to mount it in the front. Ther is always the possibility of the Renault 6 radiator (if you can find one...). 1100cc with a mechanical fan fitted originally over the steering rack.
I guess your R4 is 3-speed, be aware that you will need to replace the front crossmember (with any 4-speed one) and almost the complete front suspension because you will have problems with driveshaft length (later driveshafts are 10mm longer).

 

[David M]

Engine swap

Thanks for the reply Angel.

QUOTE; I have seen at least one 1100cc conversion with the large radiator fitted where the 850cc was.

I had thought about cooling capacity and I figured if a Mini could run a range of motors from 850 - 1275cc, then I shold be OK even with a 1289cc Renault 5 unit. The airflow in the R4 is much better than the mini's radiator in the mudguard, I would have thought.
I am hopeful of putting a slim electric fan in the original radiator shroud, if possible.


QUOTE; be aware that you will need to replace the front crossmember (with any 4-speed one) and almost the complete front suspension because you will have problems with driveshaft length (later driveshafts are 10mm longer).

I am aware of the bits I need and I will probably purchase a front cut from a failed MOT vehicle and the rear suspension bits for the restoration, from the UK.

As I seem to be flying alone on this, any other ideas would be welcome!

Regards,

David

 

[malcolm]

I suspect the steering will cause problems too. The flexible joint where the steering rack joins to the rack on the early cars will foul the bottom pulley of the 1108cc engine on RHD cars. It is probably possible to move the flexible joint closer to the rack and extend the steering column. The limiting factor is clearance to the chassis.

Fairly sure there's no room for any sort of fan behind the radiator - the 1108 engine comes forwards further than the 850.

 

[djoptix]

I wouldn't bother, the 850 is the gentleman's choice of R4 engine.

 

[David M]

I wouldn't bother, the 850 is the gentleman's choice of R4 engine.

Mmmm! This is a hard question. Originality versus practicality.

I am wanting to restore a relatively rare (in Australia) 1968 fourgonette body/chassis (R2106)

Originality;

chain driven cam
12 volt electrics
4 wheel drum brakes
front hand brake

Practicality;

bigger, more modern engine
front disc brakes
rear handbrake
"recent" interior

My intention is to have a good-looking useable example of the R4 van, capable of being a support vehicle for French vehicles in historic motorsport events.

Looking for guidance on what you think I should do.

Thanks,

David

 

[angel]

If I were you, I would fit a 1108cc engine (or maybe a R5 1400) along with a 5 speed gearbox. But I am thinking, singe its ratios are rather tall, would it be better with an F6 final drive? I agree for the brake modification but not for the interior, I really like the early instrument cluster and the tubular seats.
Of course, I would have kept the original external look!

 

[David M]

If I were you, I would fit a 1108cc engine (or maybe a R5 1400) along with a 5 speed gearbox.

I have a 1289cc R5 motor and gearbox at present. So using that is not a problem. However would fitting a R5TS motor to the tall geared R4GTL gear box give good performance and a quieter, lower revving motor at highway speeds. (65mph max legal speed here). Most of the intended use of the van would be on roads allowing 50mph.
I am hoping the R4GTL or R5TS gearbox will give a good spread of gears for cruising without going to the expense and trouble of importing a 5 speed box and modifying the mounts.
What do you think?

Of course, I would have kept the original external look!

Certainly, that is my intention. As far as possible, I want the car to be identifiable as an early model, but with the comfort, power and safety of the later GTL. Maximum fuel economy is not an important factor. No matter what I do with a 700kg car, fuel use will not suffer too greatly!

 

[angel]

You are right about the gearing. I had our classic car rallies in my mind, typically being held on twisty mountaineous roads. There was a topic about 5-speed gearbox ratios somewhere here, check this too. The 5-speed gearbox fitted to my Plein-Air replica (from a 1108cc R5) is more of a 4+overdrive than a close-ratio 5 speed. If the TS gearbox is similar, it will suit your roads nicely. With the 1300 engine, 80-90 mph will not be a problem.
Fuel economy would not be that of a 4GTL, R5 engines are known to be thirstier.

 

[David M]

Engine swap

Thanks for your posts everyone, especially Angel and Clementine. I am about 18 months away from starting the restoration.
I would like to thank you all, this forum is a great resource for R4 owners. Not just in the UK, but in all parts of the world. It is especially important to owners in the far-flung parts of the world where the cars are now rare, and expertise, let alone parts, are hard to come by.

Did I mention parts?

I shall be looking for a complete front cut of a mechanically sound car and the GTL van rear suspension, brakes etc. around Xmas '08.
Shipping will be a huge impost, I imagine. Oh well, such is the price of being a Francophile in the antipodes.

I don't want to close down this thread (not that I started it - sorry!)

Any further thoughts would be appreciated on either the engine swap OR obtaining and shipping car bits halfway around the world.

Thanks again all,
I shall keep visiting this wonderful forum and gleaning as much knowledge as I can. I am grateful that you are willing to share what you know.

Regards,

David

 

[malcolm]

It's been pointed out that I might be wrong about the steering alterations. That reminded me I fitted a 1100cc engine into a 1977 TL once and don't recall changing the steering column, so the location of the rubber coupling might have enough clearance to the camshaft pulley (though it will be close).

The pre-73 (ish) cars had a single piece steering column (no upper joint). Changing to a later column would be a pain as the steering wheel fitting is different. But you might get away with the original parts.

What's your plan for the handbrake? The GTL handbrake needs space between the two front seats, so wouldn't be an option. The post '83 Spanish built TLs are the only cars I'm aware of that have a rear handbrake operated by a bulkhead mounted pull.

I'm in the middle of fitting a 1400 Gordini engine to a '68 Renault 4. Having the carb on the wrong side on my engine causes a whole load of extra trouble (mostly with the steering).

 

[David M]

The pre-73 (ish) cars had a single piece steering column (no upper joint). Changing to a later column would be a pain as the steering wheel fitting is different. But you might get away with the original parts.

A point to ponder! Is the upper steering joint a safety/crash inclusion in the design? If so, I would rather have it! Would the newer column allow the fitment of a more recent padded steering wheel from a later Renault? Is the steering wheel fitment related to the dashboard layout or is it a change from 3 bolts to splines?

In terms of clearance for the steering, perhaps the fitting of GTL inner guards might be an option. Do they fit without problem? Would the bulkhead have to be changed? If so, could this be a welded cut and shut of the RHS section (oil filter etc) or would the entire bulkhead panel need replacement?

What's your plan for the handbrake? The GTL handbrake needs space between the two front seats, so wouldn't be an option.

I guess that the handbrake will have to come from a GTL and I will have to change the torsion bars and rear trailing arms. The rear suspension bits will have to come from a GTL van, because of the rear handbrake and the roll bar. Perhaps Renault changed the relative spring rates on the later cars too as the car got heavier/more powerful?
I have recently looked at a Rennospeed chassis repair on the web and I think welding the original handbrake mount between (behind) the seats would be a relatively easy thing to do. The set-up seems basic in the extreme. Please correct any errant thoughts here!
I don't think that I still have the original seats, but I think that they were on individual runners. Certainly, there was no gap for a handbrake. GTL seats as well, then - mabe runners as well. Would Renault 5 front seats fit? I don't have to worry about the rear seat.

I'm in the middle of fitting a 1400 Gordini engine to a '68 Renault 4. Having the carb on the wrong side on my engine causes a whole load of extra trouble (mostly with the steering).

I'm not jealous! No, I'm not ..........really!
More pics would be great. It'd be great to see the work in progress. Unless I have misread what you are doing, you will hit some of the problems that I will.
I think, Clementine, that we might be in a parallel universe, geographically separated. Whilst I'd like to keep the car as original looking as possible, I just want to have a reliable and capable car for these modern times!
I shall follow your triumphs (and tribulations) with great interest.

Keep up the good work!


Regards,
David

 

[malcolm]

I'm a bit behind on writing up that project but here's progress so far: http://www.renault4.co.uk/renault-4-restoration.htm I've since managed to trial fit the steering column. Mine has ended up custom with a '73 upper column (modified from splines to 3 bolt to take the original steering wheel) repositioned on the bulkhead with the upper universal joint slightly closer to the bulkhead and a second universal joint instead of the rubber disc coupling. That's just to clear the carb manifold!

I'm not sure why they fitted the upper joint on the later cars. Can't be crash as LHD cars retained the single piece column. Can't see the reason it would be needed for clearances either. Might have been to do with steering wheel angle?

There's no need to change the inner wings for later ones. The early ones give you more space to fit the battery and master cylinder. No need to change the bulkhead either unless you are fitting GTL or Renault 5 pedals. The GTL master cylinder will bolt to the early pedal box with some mods to the push rod.

Renault 5 seats will fit. Some people use the Mk1 Gordini seats, but I think the Mk2 seats fit OK too. Seperate R4 seats from about 1973 onwards have enough space for the handbrake too. I'm running early '70s seats in my GTL because they are more comfy and better wearing than the GTL seats.

 

[mr-reno-139]

hi david
as a fellow R4 modifier, many years back(in 1987) my r4 project was converted to 1289 5ts using 4speed box as 5sp was not readily available yet!!
can confirm bulkhead is slightly differrent to clear timing chain cover (not oil filter)
managed to mod mine with hammer !! (later removed completely to get 1647 in )
think you will really need donor car as differences will be easier to spot and over come
you mention a front cut from a breakers if you are including bulkhead you should get all you need, although you would probably? need rear arms to fit bigger rear drums and bearings
is it much cheaper to import 1/2 a car than a whole one?
thought maybe scrap R6 1108 cc are about down under ,that would also provide correct set up for you and get you front discs and umbrella rear h/ brake
all mountings and ancillaries would match up with your existing mk 1 5 parts
best of luck
paul