New Chassis Are Being Made !!!!!

[mike4gtl]

A very interesting read

http://quatrelle.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1257

Translation:

Hello, good morning Didier,

Thank you for your request. We are still working with the project R4 chassis, it i's under construction by
has local manufactory, goal I think, it will not be finished before the end of this year. We try à hold the
price between 800 and 1200 EURuro.

best looks Ansgar Biemann

 

[benchseat]

Note that this reply was originally dated September 2009. I have EMailed Herr Biemann and will post details if he replies.

 

[benchseat]

I have now received a reply from Herr Biemann. The chassis project has been cancelled because the anticipated price turned out to be over 3000 Euros - which he rightly says is not a price he expected anyone would be willing to pay.

 

[mike4gtl]

oh no and i thought we would all have re chassis'd 4L's by this time next year

 

[reggie]

chassis.

How much is a 2cv chassis ? Ive heard r4 are more complicated-- But €3,000- nah
Reg

 

[John Doe]

Oh
I was so happy to read this...

 

[angel]

How much is a 2cv chassis ? Ive heard r4 are more complicated-- But €3,000- nah
Reg

The 2CV chassis is being sold for 800-1500 euros depending of the finishing quality. Don't think that an R4 chassis can get so low in price, except if it is produced in sufficiently large quantities or material and build quality is very poor (I'd rather patch my old chassis then). We had discussed it a few times, the R4 chassis is a lot more complicated in its manufacturing process than it meets the eye.

 

[mike4gtl]

Any one got any contacts with a chinese metal working firm?

 

[reggie]

Its a sheffield steel company thats needed-it might go the distance then, thats been the trouble all along.
Reg

 

[benchseat]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how chassis manufacture might be addressed, now that Renault have ceased making them available? It might be worth taking this discussion further. To start the ball rolling could I make the following points:

(a) You want reputable metal quality (so suggesting a Chinese source is just silly),

(b) It would have to be done in reasonable quantity to get economies of scale - possibly (say) an order for 20 chassis,

(c) It would have to be paid for by firm orders in advance, with money paid up front, into a designated bank account (possibly an escrow account) with payment to the manufacturer being made only on completion of the batch. Otherwise there is too much chance of money being lost (this would mean the manufacturer accepting a certain commercial risk which would be reflected in his price). As a Chartered Accountant I could handle the financial side . . .

(d) It would be necessary for any interested parties (or their expert representative - I'm thinking here of someone like Renospeed or Malcolm) to test-run a prototype chassis by assembling a new car round it from existing parts,

(e) Economies of cost could be made by having the chassis painting, sealing and (possibly) some hole-drilling done by the customer (who would by definition be someone fairly au fait with restoration anyway) - basic galvanising or passivating would have to be done by the manufacturer,

(f) Manufacture in UK, France or Germany is preferable for reasons of convenience of delivery, communications and manufacturer reliability/trustworthiness,

(g) As regards cost, about a year ago I was quoted approximately £1000 by Renospeed for rebuilding a bare chassis (with all body parts removed). So I would have thought that a new chassis could be made for a similar price, given that the individual components (chassis panels and girders) are (I think) still available.

If anyone is interested in taking this further, with sensible suggestions rather than blog-talk, please post replies, assessment of feasibility and/or an indication of whether you would be interested the end product. I have EMailed Herr Biemann to ask him whether a large batch could be manufacturered at a lower price.

 

[Steve Hennessey]

All very good points!! but don't knock the Chinese - their stuff is getting better all the time. I also have a Chinese contact!! - the main problem will be to to decide whether a replica chassis could be built. This would cost a fortune due to the tooling needed. However, if a chassis only needs to serve a particular purpose ie - to hold all the bits in the right places and to be fit for purpose, then a brand new chassis could be designed. All the Chinese would need is a R4 to be shipped over to them and let them get on with it!

As for 20 chassis being a reasonable quantity, maybe you would need a bigger order than that to make it worthwhile. How many people would commit themselves to buying a chassis??

Three years ago I advertised a brand new genuine R4 chassis on this forum and there was no interest. I then put it on ebay - again, no interest. I sold it this year to a lucky forum member and this has now been fitted to his car. To my knowledge, this chassis was the last one unless somebody unearths a batch in rural France!!

 

[malcolm]

There should be easier ways to get a new chassis. They appear to still be manufactured in Colombia. See http://www.renault4.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2954 They seem to be using the original tooling.

Getting some over here is a bit tricky - seems to be difficult to export things from Colombia. Richardirl and myself have put feelers out.

Getting the R4 scene in the UK together to pre-order stuff is near impossible. There just aren't enough of us. We'd need France involved but I am unsure of the rules over there. I think replacement parts need to come from the original manufacturer in France.

 

[mike4gtl]

it all comes down to cost in these credit crunching times. Its like this, i own the 4th oldest long wheel base series 1 land rover and the chassis is WAY past repair. (i swept it away) i need a new chassis so the club have gingerly commissioned some but they are going to cost £2500 + vat. I have no option really.

 

[paulandpat]

The situation in France can be complicated - I'm not an expert, you would need to ask one of the french contributors to the forum, but I have been told by Alain our local 2cv guru that some local UK 2cv owners have been refused 'Controle Techniques' - the equivalent of an MOT - as the UK built galvanised chassis does not comply with the rules. Here its very difficult to gat a CT on anything that has been altered, you cannot for example change a car from petrol to diesel, or change the engine or gearbox type (no 1400 cc turbocharged 5 speed R4's allowed here! We have recently acquired a Citroen HY cattle truck which should have either 17 x 400 or 19 x 400 tyres on it, its fitted with 16 inch radials, it failed the CT on a couple of things but my mate said it should have been failed for having the wrong tyres.
Given that the largest number of R4's in existence is probably here and therefore possibly the largest demand for replacement chassis it follows that it would be best to check what is needed here before going too far.
Mehari club cassis sell replacement 2cv chassis into the french market, so they may have some useful advice to offer.

 

[richard]

why not a simplified chassis using mostly commercially available box sections of various suitable sizes with specially folded sections(quite simple?)where absolutly necessary.All welded up in a rectangular perimeter frame jig.No need to follow Renaults mass-production design too closely.Suggest 1.5 mm.steel thickness if possible? lets start sketching/doodling& see what comes up.I am all right chassiswise,though,because i have for years poured old oil in,as recently described

 

[mike4gtl]

1 other question is are floor pans still available? I know every now and then people on here seem to amazingly 'find' a new floor to fit like the chap who restored the red F6 (now blue) a few posts down.

If they are then that would be the way to go i.e get the frame made and then weld in the floor your self (or get a forum member or garage to do so) most of us on here can weld.

If floors are not, we could either do away with the ribbed patten and just use flat sheet or wait to find a pattern floor and get some copied. Im not sure what this would cost as i presume it would have to be pressed i guess.

But basically i think we are looking at over £1000 per chassis in the long run.

The other option is to ask chassis makers if they would commission a chassis? The series one land rover club did this very gingerly and have had a few new chassis made by this company http://www.marslands.com/

 

[Rutger-peer]

Well... I think fabricating, shipping and selling a chassis without the floor is not a possibility for several reasons.

I don't know if you have been working with R4chassis yourself? I'll explain:

The floor in the R4chassis is an integral part of the chassis. Without the floor, the chassis is very instable and looses it's stiffness. It gets it's strength from the floor. Without the floor the chassis will easily bent, twist and loose it's angles.

Also, for example, the floor is just the fourth side of the crossbeam/casing on the back of the chassis (where the chassis meets the bootfloor), the beam that runs from the right side to the left side and vica versa. When you remove the floor there, you look directly inside that beam, the floor functions as the fourth wall of that casing.

In other words, there is no usefull thing like an R4 chassis without the floor.
In case you had it in mind like what the chassis looked like after when DavidN (the guy from the F6 restoration) cut out those floorparts... that would probably only increase costs.

So I don't think that would help us. But who knows what kind of ideas somebody could come up with...

PS: buying a chassis like that and assembling it yourselves might even cause problems for the examination and admittance and the stamping of a chassisnumber ... A chassis or car alike gets a type admittance (at least here in the Netherlands) once and every chassis or car that is exactly the same is admitted directly after it's been examinated and approved (that means: is exactly the same regarding specifications). Changing the exact specifications of a chassis would pose problems to that type admittance and would require a new examination, which is more costly. Introducing a new type of vehicle may cost 10.000 euro's here, after the type is approved of, every vehicle that's the same is grant admittance after checking it's just like the specifications of that type.

Having a customer weld in some structural parts of a chassis won't be approved for certain. Replicating chassis like that is only useful when you're welding in your own chassisnumber (from an old chassis) and so can skip the examination and stamping of the number by a formal authority.

PSPS: sorry for the long post.

 

[Firstandbest]

Malcolm, could you set up the poll (like the BBQ one) to understand the appetite for a new chassis?

Perhaps ask if interested at various costs eg £1,000, £2000, Any price!!! Plus if needed within 1, 3 and 5 years?

Derek at Renospeed might place an order for a few if a manufacturer could be tempted.

For now, mine is ok and worshipped!

 

[benchseat]

To respond to some of the above posts :

(a) A poll as to who would be interested in a new chassis at (say) £1000 would be useful. Bear in mind that, in time, it becomes not feasible to continue patching increasingly rusty/brittle metal. I'd certainly put my name down for at least two.

(b) The point regarding Type Approval is a good one. An obviously non-standard chassis would almost certainly preclude an MOT pass (and hence Historic Vehicle road tax exemption), and would probably make it impossible for Type Approval being awarded to an imported vehicle (remember, these have to be inspected in person by a DVLA inspector before being approved for a UK tax disc). The point regarding CT in France could be addressed by having the thing constructed in France by a manufacturer who can address this problem before it arises.

(c) I believe that floor pans (and, for that matter, many of the individual chassis girders and rails) are still available. Renospeed told me that they were (aftermarket items). I would think that, in any case, the main cost of a chassis would be in the set-up costs and construction time, rather than the individual components.

(d) You are never going to "tempt a manufacturer" into constructing something like this on spec. After the initial feasibility study and price estimate he would need firm orders in advance (see my original post), and the more orders, the less the set-up costs pro rata.

(e) Can some English + Spanish speaker liaise with Malcolm and his Colombian contact and find out who manufactures these replacement chassis and whether they would would fit the bill?

(f) Remember that, if this idea were ever to get off the ground, we would be have to confine ourselves initially to the wide issues - finding a manufacturer (if the Colombian ones were no longer available or were not suitable) and obtaining a price estimate given a reasonably large advance order. The only important detail to ascertain in advance would be whether MOT/CT approval could be obtained with such a replacement chassis - DVLA would have to be consulted. With this exception, t would be counterproductive to get bogged down in minor design details at the preliminary stage.

 

[Rutger-peer]

Very good points.

But especially post E makes me wonder. Wouldn't it be a good idea to first give the importing of those Columbian chassis a good try? Thus looking for ways to do that and have a look at what that would cost. Apparently they are still manufactured, then why go through all the trouble of approval, cost benefits etc. etc. if it's possible to just import them? I'm not saying it will be easy but I think that's the first thing we should look at and if that don't work, then we can go have a look at manufacturing them somewhere here in the UK or Europe.

Right?