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r5 engine, again...

Azazello

Azazello

habitué
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Italy
I found this on lbc:
http://www.leboncoin.fr/equipement_auto/206792318.htm?ca=5_s

It seems to be a good offer...
Is it the right kind of engine to have just a simple swap with my 956 one, isn't it?
It comes without its gearbox, so I should use mine... whether I know the gtl one would be better...
This kind of work is quite illegal in Italy, so I was wondering if, changing the plate, the two engines will look somewhat different or will it be impossible to find the difference?
Thank you again...
 
It would be pretty difficult for an inspector to notice the difference, here in the UK we are far luckier in that we can change things around without much problem.

But on our annual inspection our inspectors never check the engine serial numbers.
 
We have an inspection every two years, but it is quite superficial, and useless, on my own; just a way to earn 70 euros. They do not look at engine numbers, nor at chassis rust or suspension and so on.
I fear more the insurance inspection, just in case of some accident...
 
pepper said:
It would be pretty difficult for an inspector to notice the difference, here in the UK we are far luckier in that we can change things around without much problem.

But on our annual inspection our inspectors never check the engine serial numbers.
Click to expand...

Careful here. Agreed this is probably unlikely to be picked up by an MOT station, since only the VIN is recorded on your MOT, but the rules about engine swaps have changed now in the UK.
DVLA require written evidence of any changes to engine number and cylinder capacity (cc). This is geared towards car crime prevention rather than catching out classic car restorers, but if you end up having to have the car inspected for some reason, for example in the event of an accident and an insurance claim, and an anomaly is spotted, then you could have problems.
 
The 956 and 1108 engines are absolutely indistinguishable from the outside. The plate comes off easily and can be fixed to the new engine with new rivets.

The real problem starts as soon as the inspector notices somehow that the engine plate has been tampered with (don't ask me how, they often have very sharp eyes...). In this case you must, as we say here, prove that you are not an elephant (while the inspectors think that you are...), and it is not that easy!
 
I do not fear periodical inspection, because it is not so severe in Italy... I fear more insurance experts, in case of accidents... But I hope not to have to do with them...

I was wondering if the engine in the photo was the one I was looking for... the gearbox is in the right position, but there are less manifold holes than I expected, oil cap on the wrong end of the engine and something on the right side that I do not remember on my engine, but I do not recognize cause of the low quality of the photo. Am I wrong?
I asked the seller for more photos and engine code, but still no answer.
My mechanic would like to know if even the engine mountings on the chassis are the same between r4 and r5...
And, above all, it comes only with water pump and alternator: I miss in and out manifold, carburettor, distributor and so on; could I use all the stuff from my old engine? Should be better to find specific stuff?

Angel, have you finaly tried the 1108 engine - 956 gearbox combination? My mechanic said it was better, more brilliant... But noise? Consumption?

I am full of doubts...
 
There are 4 inlet ports, just like any other Cleon engine but you can't see them because they are rather sooty.
The rocker cover (and therefore the oil filler hole position) is different because these engines have the throttle linkage on the rocker cover. Your existing rocker cover will fit.
You don't need to bother about engine mountings, you simply use your existing combination of rubber mountings and chassis brackets, they will fit straight on.
You could use your carb / manifold / distributor, but it's definitely not the best thing you can do, as the R5 engine is designed to use the 32mm carburettor and accompanying distributor.

I drove the car in city roads, and it was as expected: much more lively than the Jogging, and I found that I was rather frequently on fourth gear, when, on the same route with the Jogging, I was cruising on 3rd! Haven't driven it on open roads yet. We are going to measure consumption, but this can be done reliably after some time as the engine is not run-in yet and still tight.
 
Angel, you're precious as ever.
No news from the vendor, but if he is still interested I think I should buy the engine... The difference between r4's 1108 engine and r5's one is in the manifold/carburettor/distributor group? So, I will end having a r4 classic engine...

Talking about the engine/gearbox combination: the engine will be on a higher rpm than with his usual gearbox, or not? And noise level at high speed (I know that 1108 engines are less noisy, cause of their low rpm in front of the 956 ones)? And speed too, is anyway affected?

Thank you again, your information are very interesting, specially for a mechanically ignorant like me, that would like to understand a bit more...

I was trying to find someone able to do the engine swapping, in order to do it with him, learning something; but my friend's father, an old ex mechanic retired, said it is too a big job to be done in a home garage, so I think I should leave the work for a professional to be done...
 
Azazello said:
The difference between r4's 1108 engine and r5's one is in the manifold/carburettor/distributor group? So, I will end having a r4 classic engine...
Click to expand...

It may not be so, because the R5 engine may have a different camshaft and/or compression, and may not work as it should do if you fit the 28IF carb and R4 distributor. But I don't think that difference from the "genuine" GTL engine will be that great.

The 956 and 1108cc engines alone have the same noise levels but a 1108 engine/gearbox combination (taller final drive) will run at lower rpm for a given vehicle speed, therefore you feel it less noisy.
 
689 is 956cc, like yours.

Even if it was 1108cc, it would be better to convert your existing engine to 1108cc (new pistons/liners would be needed anyway).
 
Angel, you're the only one still answering my silly questions...
I did not check for the engine code 'cause I read r4 gtl and thought it was a 1108...
I found a pair of wikipedia pages explaining the engine codes:

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motore_Cléon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Renault_engines#Numeric

Maybe they're obvious for you and other experienced forum members (maybe page's writer is one of us...), but opened a new world for me...

Did you tell me that converting my engine I will end up with a low compression version, didn't you?

On the firts wiki link, I read that a r5 688 engine has more torque at a lower rpm than a r4 688 one... 84Nm/2000rpm vs 74Nm/2500rpm...

Turns out I am a student again...

Very sad hearing you're not coming to Thenay, I'd like to know you... I hope you're still in time to change your mind.
 
No Andrea, I can't make it to Thenay...it's not easy to change plans the last moment, with a three day trip ahead. After seeing the photos of your white R4 ready to go, really made me feel sad that I will not be there...anyway, I think we will have the chance to meet at some time.

Yes you have to skim the head, to end up with GTL's compression of 9,5:1. At least that was what I found it necessary to do on the 956 I converted recently, and was originally fitted to an R4. Maybe 956 engines fitted to R5s have higher compression? I don't have too much info on this.
The R5 engine is originally fitted with the "Hennessey hot up kit", so it's expected to perform better. Of course, fuel consumption is higher, but these extra HP and Nm must come from somewhere...
 
My mechanic said that with lpg the carburettor does not affect performance, indeed the lpg hose goes at the carb's base... So it should be the same to have a r4 or a r5 engine... But I am still thinking about blos, using which the difference would be present, being the lpg hose at the air intake...
I read some threads on this forum about the difference between the two engines, and I did not understand yet if the only difference is the Hennessey hot up kit or even the camshaft or some other piece of the engine... The compression ratio is the same for r5 and r4 688 engine, only for super5 it changes a goes down to 9,25... How it is calculated? I have to do more searching...
Also the gearbox type is calculated in the torque/hp numbers I read? There is difference between a r5 4-gear gearbox and the gtl one? The first is a simple swap on a r4 or should I have to find a gtl gearbox (not too hard I think, but it should be more simple to have all the pieces from one car)... I know that if I find a 5 speed r5 gearbox I have to change the front of the car because of a few cm extra lenght to make space for the 5th gear... I've seen at Thenay a f6 with a r5 1.4 engine and the 5 speed gearbox, the man said it was a easy work to swap the upper plate and the selector... It had even a double-corp carb and a "cruise control"... And the owner said the consumption was not changed from the original engine...
I have some number of scrapyard here in Italy in which look for, from monday I will continue my quest, stopped for the french holidays.
Just to know what to look for.
Thanks...
 
So, maybe I found an engine of a 1108 r5 in a scrapyard, in a few days I will go and have a look. What do I have to look for in the engine number to check if it is the right one? Maybe the metal plate is missing due to the scrapped car, the engine is on a shelf...
I found a guy too selling an r5 4gear gearbox and a WEBER 32D1R100 carburettor and manifold, from a 1108 r5.
Is better to buy that gearbox or to find a r4 gtl one? Wich will go better (even under the space point of view - will the r5 one fit without troubles?).
Is the carb of any good, even, at last, if I decide to buy a 1108 r4 engine or only with an r5 one?
Still confused and disoriented.
 
Okay - just to clear a few things up. The 1108cc R4 and R5 (Mark 1 TL) are exactly the same engines. The engine code is 688. The gearboxes on both cars have exactly the same gear ratios. The R5 gearbox will not fit into the R4 unless you transfer the bell housing and the input shaft over from the R4 gearbox. You will need to buy a new gasket that goes between the bell housing and the gearbox case. You will also need to buy a new input shaft oil seal that fits in the bell housing. You will also need to remove the top plate and mechanism from the R5 casing and fit the R4 top plate and gear lever. You will need a new gasket as well.

I am not aware of that carburettor having been fitted to the R5 Mark 1. Just make sure that it not from a R5 Mark 2 1100cc because it won't be suitable.
 
Steve Hennessey said:
Okay - just to clear a few things up. The 1108cc R4 and R5 (Mark 1 TL) are exactly the same engines. The engine code is 688. The gearboxes on both cars have exactly the same gear ratios. The R5 gearbox will not fit into the R4 unless you transfer the bell housing and the input shaft over from the R4 gearbox. You will need to buy a new gasket that goes between the bell housing and the gearbox case. You will also need to buy a new input shaft oil seal that fits in the bell housing. You will also need to remove the top plate and mechanism from the R5 casing and fit the R4 top plate and gear lever. You will need a new gasket as well.

I am not aware of that carburettor having been fitted to the R5 Mark 1. Just make sure that it not from a R5 Mark 2 1100cc because it won't be suitable.
Click to expand...

Perfect. So what gives the r5 engine more kw? Is it only a carb matter? If yes, it will be easier to have a r4 engine complete with gearbox. They're still quite easy to find, while I have to search a bit for the r5 one.
I thought it was a matter of camshaft too, or something similar... I found and read more than one post on the forum and never had a definitive answer...

If it fits without problems I will prefer the gtl gearbox, to have less work to do. At least if I cannot find a 5gear gearbox...

The carb (I had a look on the net yesterday) is a WEBER 32DIR100, the seller confused an I for a 1, and it seems it was fitted to r5 TS/TX, but someone put it even on TL... Here it is:
http://www.forocoches.com/foro/showthread.php?t=1930767

Could be of any good? It comes with his manifold for 100 euros...

Thank you very much I reckon I am a little boring with all my questions but I want to be sure of what I am doing before buying all this stuff, it is not so cheap and do not want to waste my money...
And I am a curious man too...
 
In the UK the R4 was fitted with the 28IF carb. The R5 was fitted with a better 32IF that gave more performance. The Weber carb will not be suitable. If you are intent on fitting a 1108cc engine then your current carb will be sufficient - although you may need to re-jet it.
In an ideal world, if you managed to find a Mark 1 R5 TL intact then you will have all the parts you need to improve your R4.
 
The R5 Mk1 1108cc carb runs brilliantly on the R4 (as Steve says they are exactly the same engine apart from the carb and manifold). Should imagine the TX carb would run much less well - you won't get the flow speed on the 1108 so it'll be too lean or too rich and everything but right.
 
So it's not worth to look for an r5 engine, it is better to find a complete gtl one and, if possible, 32IF (What brand?) manifold and carb... And the diference between the 2 engines is only in the carb, isn't it?
So mine is only a big waste of energy...
Here is quite impossible to find a complete r5 to use as a donor, very few remained, very difficult to find in scrapyards and quite expensive to buy one of the few still circulating... I call about 10 scrapyards and found only one with the engine, but it is a very organized scrapyard that keeps all the pieces apart on shelfs, so I think it has only the engine...

Merci beacoup...
 
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