R5 mkI engine identification

[John Doe]

I am thinking of buying this engine and 5 speed gearbox but I am having trouble with the identification. The inner wing sticker says engine family: C2J-83, 1397ccm... but I am afraid that it was maybe changed sometimes during the course of years. This is what the engine block says.

Few details that could be of some help:

Double Weber, nice

This is the actual car, I am only interested to buy the engine (and all the things that go with it), gearbox and those two wheels.

 

[malcolm]

847 from the engine plate means a 1397cc engine. According to my manual it was fitted to some TX and American spec Le Cars. The two barrel carburettor is normal for that model - it runs on a single barrel for economy and the second opens after 2/3 throttle.

Should go well in a Renault 4.

 

[John Doe]

847 from the engine plate means a 1397cc engine. According to my manual it was fitted to some TX and American spec Le Cars. The two barrel carburettor is normal for that model - it runs on a single barrel for economy and the second opens after 2/3 throttle.

Should go well in a Renault 4.

I could kiss you if you were here Thank you Malcom. Do you maybe know how much hp is available from this engine? And what should I buy besides the gearbox and engine? It looks like it has brake servo, may be a good idea to buy it too.

 

[malcolm]

From memory they are 63bhp. It'll have electric ignition so it might be worth taking the control box for that. Take all the hoses and cables you can see - they won't all fit but some will.

I think Mr Reno fitted a R5 brake servo in his car. I've not done it myself but I think you would also need to take the pedals and perhaps a bit of bulkhead. I'm using a remote brake servo on my car which requires an early single circuit brake master cylinder (they fit to the later pedal box with some care in push rod length).

 

[John Doe]

Thanks again. What about engine/gearbox mountings? Should I take the driveshafts? Please do tell everything that crosses you mind and can be of any help.

 

[malcolm]

Engine mounts and driveshafts will fit the R4. You'll need the gearbox mounting as that's quite different to the R4 part. Fair amount of modification to the front crossmember is needed to fit the gearbox.

 

[John Doe]

Tnx a lot.

 

[David M]

Gearbox?

Just a thought. Probably not a well considered one, because I don't have my gearbox book with me at work.
If my memory is correct, the final drive of a GTL box has the pinion with 10 teeth to the crownwheel's 31 teeth. Ratio of 3.1:1. I think the 5 speeder is a little higher. The GTL box will give quieter, more relaxed and frugal perfomance and won't affect the speedo reading. You also will not need to modify the crossmember or fiddle with the gearchange linkage. The car will also "look" more original.
I would suspect that the 60ish HP will transform the car anyway.


Regards,

David

 

[mr-reno-139]

hi to both our overseas friends (and malcolm )

gearboxes ratios got discussed recently in depth on parts wanted section http://www.renault4.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1977
and think that is likely that the 5 sp box fitted to the 5 pictured above will have a lower ratio box than a standard (UK) R4 1108

also looking at pictures it is fitted with EGR emmision control so may be slightly less powerful than uk spec cars and may possibly have higher ratio box so let us know the tag information on box (HA1-***)

to fit electronic ignition you will need the crank sensor and flywheel setup used on the 5 with the bell housing/ gearbox -- does it actually have electronic ignition or is malcolm assuming things as 1981/2 1397 (uk) models are conventional points ignition

finally yes i have got 5 pedals and servo in my car by cutting hole in bulkhead to suit but that was for RHD setup and LHD may not be as easy to do

you can even fit floor gear change linkage but malcolm is brave :eek: and there is a thread of his on here some where showing making cross members and swapping tops over

would be worth getting front silencer under wing as combined with a straight through rear silencer will be less restrictive and sounds good too :wink:

finally you are lucky finding mk1 5 as none left over here


paul

 

[John Doe]

Thank you Paul and David. I will update you within few days with all the details when I get it home. David, if this combination works good in an R5 I don't see why wouldn't it work in an R4, you are right about the front cross member.

P.S. An R4 with the floor gear change isn't really an R4 for me

 

[malcolm]

It's a lot easier to convert to dash change than use floor change - just swapping top covers and a selector rod. I'm assuming it has the HA1 box not the later Gordini box.

I'd have thought an underwing silencer would be more restrictive than a straight through rear box. (Standard R4 rear box is terrible - you'll want the R5 parts). Gas speed is a lot higher at the front of the pipe, lower at the back afterthe gas has slowed down. So the same silencer ought to offer much less restriction at the back. Course it's not the same silencer. Other interesting thing is the speed of sound is a lot higher at the front, so for the same performance the silencer would need to be about twice the length. Which is probably why it sounds good.

Edit - Ahh - missread. Combined with not compared with. Makes all the sense in the world now.

 

[David M]

Ill-considered!

David, if this combination works good in an R5 I don't see why wouldn't it work in an R4, you are right about the front cross member.

P.S. An R4 with the floor gear change isn't really an R4 for me


See, I told you! Ill-considered!

When you were talking of gearboxes, I was thinking of the gordini 5 speeder! (and thinking of all sorts of issues when using it in a R4)

I understand the attraction of a grunty R4. My thoughts were about keeping it "normal"

I am about to start on an antipodean version of a grunty 4, however, my choices are limited because of the lack of (especially) later R4 variants.

Good luck with your conversion. Post pics please.


David

 

[mr-reno-139]

hi again
just found my engine tech book (covers all the C type 5 bearing engines upto 1982)
your engine code is same as canada (emission control)type with 8.8 compression ratio rather than 9.25 we got in uk
if you let me know the tag no on HA1 box i will let you know more as if it is a low ratio 5 speeder it may not justify the time to fit if making a new cross member is not easy for you unless you really want an extra gear !!

the 1400 will bolt straight to your original box and only accelerator cable has to be changed for it all to work presuming it has standard ignition (points) setup which the photos indicate

exhaust will bolt up but too restrictive on performance ideally

have fun
paul

ps i only fitted floor change as my 1647 engine was too tall for the gear linkage to clear rocker cover - my choke cable now lives in gear lever hole !
i looked into swapping G/box tops over long time ago and didnt think it was possible ?
Malcolm has proved me wrong :wink: so we are all still learning

 

[John Doe]

Look what the cat dragged in (no, not Clementine).

I can't locate HA1 marking but this is what I can see, FMA is probably manufacturer, there are also these markings FD 17, SF1 and at the bottom 7700 598376. Top cover is made of plastic and it was made in 1983.

One more thing, there is a paper sticker on the chain cover that says 123 TS?

 

[John Doe]

Oh you mean this tag

 

[mr-reno-139]

hi again, well done did you take it out yourself ?
unfortunately my tech manual is dated 1982 and doesnt list HA1 005 or maybe my book is only for uk/ france
for those interested
03 and 04 boxes are TS/TX 9/31 low ratio
01and 02 are TL/GTL 10/31 high ratio

any idea what the oval plate on R5 said was it R1229 ?

doesnt really matter like you say it will all work in your 4 and can only be an improvement !!

ps notice it has thicker timing chain cover as on tx with P.A.S might be worth checking clearance on bulkhead of R4 although think its ok on later models as body is different shape

 

[John Doe]

Hi,
scrapyard mechanics took it out. I wish I bought the whole car so I could use any part I want... I wasn't really paying attention to the R5 so I don't know it's oval plate number but the scrapyard isn't that far away so I will have a look.

I am doing all this so I can have a little faster R4 so I would really like to clear things out, is it worth the effort. Should I use standard R4 box or this one...

Now I need a car to put all this in

 

[malcolm]

If it is the low ratio box with 9:31 ratio the 5th gear ratio will be slightly lower than the GTL. So an extra gear but more revs than before. Haven't tried it yet but lot of effort in crossmember mods for the benefit. (I'm tempted to approach Mr Reno about a 10:31 ratio box).

 

[John Doe]

Well I do have a spare car so I could fit this 1400ccm engine to test it with R4 GTL gearbox. But testing this HA1 005 isn't that easy. Any info and ideas will be appreciated.

 

[angel]

Paul, can you look at your transmission manuals to see what is the actual differences between 354-28 and 354-29 gearboxes? Renault claims one was fitted to normal equipments, while the other to poor road/special equipments, but I cannot find any actual differences on the components!