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R5engine/gearbox for F4 What-fits-What??

R

reidalpine

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Hi all-ALL too long now!
My project of making a F4 trailer out of...
an F4, is still dormant,but at least now I have the donor here.
-Drove it up from Nogent to Norway without as much as a single misfire or hick-up!
ROFFEN the F4 is JUST out of his winter-sleep and eager to get out there again.
Now to the point....Roffen is an-84 R2106 850cc-engine: B1BD7/07 gearbox:HA0166 with drums front and rear (rear 180mm dia.)Got a R5GTL -77 R-1225 that I've taken the engine /gearbox out of -to give Roffen some steroids for speed and stamina!
Details on R5 engine 1289cc (ID.plate says 910NA1(F)and gearbox says 354-136 4speed) both are LHD,R5 has floor-shift but it looks fairly simple to change to correct uhm!brella-stick.
I am now leaning HARD (Can you feel it??)-on all you R4surgeons out there...
I need to know what else from the R5 I will be able to use
meaning:Can I use the front-hubs and brakediscs -Is it
an easy/direct swap? Can I-or Must I use the driveshafts from the R5 Any other front-drivetrain/axle items I can or Must use? I don't want to do away with the in-dash park-brake so I plan to mount separate mechanical brakecalipers for park-brake(from a Suzuki )on the front discs -IF I can use the hubs and/or discs from the R5 that is!!??(Or will the front brake-drums be sufficient??
Are the engine and gearbox-mounts the same-Do they go in the same position?Can I still use the (all new) under-wing exhaustpot and system,or do I need to change it?
I also want to install the bigger radiator+el-fan nearer the grille any specific issues here?

ANY/ALL suggestions/tips GREATLY appreciated!!

-In case someone is interressted-I promise to attach some pixes on the forum soon.Today is raining so I have only patted Roffen on the hood today-soon as sun is up I will have pixes....
 
I do!-I talk to Roffen Every day.Before I go to bed I open the window and say 'nighty-nite Roffen-see you in the morning' c",) c",)
 
Not to worry!-my therapist tells me it's all normal
-but then again all IS to him....
Me and Roffen? -we just laugh at him!
 
If I were I would too..!
being just another happy ignorant I have no worries- and besides, Roffen is of same opinion.
By the way-Anyone up for The Ultimate Challenge this summer??
We plan to drive up to North Norway as far as possible-and visit the Easternmost city in the world; Vardoe (2460km.One way)Plan to go
July. Reindeers,Lapps and Santa promised to be seen -plus mosquitos the size of Chesterfield-sofas sounding like Stratocasters (not the guitars but the bombers)when they home in........
 
back to toplc
not enough time for typing now ,was hoping somebody else could reply but will reveal all as soon as have free moment


paul
 
Well, it seems that I have more time than Paul... :-)

You may mean 810 not 910 engine type. I could not find data for the rest (NA1F) but whatever it is, it will make Roffen (and yourself...) very happy! One of my customers has a R4 with such a conversion and even though it is the weakest of the 1289s, it rockets the R4!!
To fit the umbrella gear lever is simple-has been explained in detail somewhere else here.
You can use the front hubs-discs-calipers-stub axle carriers (am I correct Paul?)-upper wishbones-driveshafts (they are the same on both R5 and post-73 R4s)-shock absorbers-steering rack , also the rear drums/hubs (not the suspension arms, though) and various common parts such as switches etc.
The only "must" on fitting these parts on the R4 is that you will need to fit the R5 wheels at least at front because R4 ones foul the brake calipers.
I think it will be a hassle to fit separate handbrake calipers. I have seen a disc brake conversion that retained the dash mounted handbrake and mecanism, then ran a long cable up to roughly the middle of the floor, then a yoke and two cables to the rear brakes (and worked fine!). You will find most of the handbrake parts on the R5. The front drums may be sufficient (larger 228mm-R2106) but discs will be even better!
Engine mounts go in the same places, as far as I remember the front gearbox mounting is different but fitting your old R4 one is straightforward.
You can use the underwing silencer but the best in terms of engine performance would be to fit a R5 one (also under the wing).
You must use the R5 radiator, but you will not be able to use the original bonnet with the diagonal tie-bars (does your R4 has such a bonnet?). If you cut them the bonnet will become too flexible, so you either have to find a GTL/F6 bonnet, or cut the tie-bars amd make something like a reinforcing frame inside the bonnet. You will also have to fabricate a support for the gearshift lever front bush (since it was originally mounted on top of your radiator). This is easy (and after fitting it, you will discover that you will not be able to use the jack storage points on the inner wing!!).
 
hi again people

wondered if you would reply Angel ,as didnt want to be seen to be answering every post on here :)

also as non uk spec cars are not always the same ,there were no F4s here once the F6 was introduced in 83

a few minor issues to add my thoughts to

you will ideally need the brackets that bolt to chassis legs off
of 956/1108 R4 as angle of mount is different on 845
(they are welded to 5 bodyshell)

wishbones on 4 and 5 not the same but d shafts are

hubs and discs will bolt on but check taper angle on track rod end ? depends on year i think

if you have 180mm rear brakes it may already have unused handbrake bits inside then you just need cable and linkage of F6/ gtl

but i would use original front drums first and see how you feel once driven

think angel has covered rest (and saved me typing time )

next question ? cheers paul
 
Hi there Angel and Paul!
Sorry -it took me some time to verify the engine&box numbers on the R1225 R5 as it was so full of muck! You are correct
-on engine it says:
810-6
726
2600641
and on box it says:
354-136
prod.no I can't make out

-I am in the process of cleaning all parts to see whats-what...
On Roffen-the F4, the upper front wishbones do not have the large round hole so castor-angle is 13 degrees.(correct?)

Roffens bonnet don't have the two 45 degrees/Diagonal tie-bars but one single V-shaped side to side and two V's lenghtwise each side

-I don't think they will interfere with forwardmounted grill at all as
they are all flush with bonnet

-I intend to make a strutbrace (going on at topmount of shock-absorber)and include a guide (round hole)for gearlever.
Roffen has the small (dia 180mm.)rear brakedrums and there are no levers or other parts in there to fascilitate parkbrake there..

I think I will do as you suggest-try with the brakes its got and see
if sufficient..All wheelcylinders/pumps and linings + pipes are new
so there's hope!
I will have to have a good look and compare the front gearbox-mount on both to see if they are different.
I intend to have
the engine and the box from the R5 installed as one lump as they
both worked nicely are tight and only covered 70.000kms all in all

Didn't know the engine-mount welded on frame front legs had different angle Thanx Much for info
-will surely save me some hassle when
holding new engine/box in the air on one arm and ever so gently lowering it into position c",)

Anyone/Anywhere got more good advice or -just want to distract me.. your message is Highly appreciated!
-R.
 
810-G726. It is the 45HP version of the 1289cc engine. Lots of torque!!!
The castor angle should be 13 degrees, it was changed in 1969, if your R4 is not that early don't worry much...
From what you describe you have already solved most of the conversion problems. You don't have to bother about which gearbox to use because the F4 one will not fit on the large engine and vice versa-they turn in opposite directions.

We are waiting more news!
 
Hi Angel! RoffenF4 is of 1984class -so still young at heart! Torque comes in handy when other F4 is cut in half to be used as trailer I guess.

-Anyone out there sitting on some Female-parts ?? c",)
-Meaning;
the female hinge-parts (the ON-roof part of Girafon-hinges)
Screwed-on ones would be preferable..

Owners-manual says when Girafon is not in place(due to transport of Giraffe)It should be hinged-away inside...Either I'm loosing my eye-sight
or they forgot to mount the brackets for this use in Roffen....
would be nice to have these as all of you probably know we have
lots of Giraffes here in Norway (the southern part that is!)
Any offers Gentlemen??
-R.
 
:-) :-) Unfortunately we don't have any giraffes in Greece, so very few F4s remain here...
Maybe it was a feature of earlier F4s?
 
AN UPDATE.
LOOONG overdue transplant of new R5GTL (R1225)into Roffen now getting closer..chassis-mounts/Rad.mounts/crossmember now finished and ready.I have found some new info re.this 810 G motor
which was delivered to Norway with 66hp -not 44 as I thought c",)
so should make Roffen into a SmokingRedHotRocket!!
found Roffen and the R5 to have same driveaxles-new boots and grease in place to cut down on shop-time.
Measured the gearboxes inc. bellhousing-found R5 to be about 10mm.shorter but this is being 'taken up'by the 10mm.fatter gearbox-bracket from R5 so should be ok I guess.
Both motors use same 356/HAO gearbox.
-noticed you guys saying the g.box-bracket are different-Besides R5-one being fatter.. any other important difference? If so-is the difference on
g.box-side of it or front-traverse side??-or maybe both sides?
both Roffen and the R5 has same dia (38mm.I.D)exhaust-outlet
so first part of exhaust should be ok to keep-will have a look for the bigger R5/6 pot/downtube and lake-pipe (side-exit)but will
test as is first.
-have jotted down all details/parts different or same as R4F4 plus
things needed done to fit-so will come back with this-After I've seen it to work as planned....... -R.
 
latest bulletin from the west-front...(Monday is D-Day)

By now slightly (in)famous R5GTL engine and HAO166 gearbox installed in the Roffmobile.
battery tray moved/Rad in -and out/crossmember in place/hoses for rad in/carb connected to cables/new plugs/cond.etc in/complete clutch in (old one was seized-up)Starter-ring turned 1/4 driveaxles in..
Found one zimmerring (36X54X7,5)to be leaking so have ordered new one -will be here end of next week so used other seemingly good one from other box..We'll see when I fill it up with oil again.
Tonight will make slight mod. to rad so speedowire will fit with no sharp bend-will raise rad 2cm and cut out a passage for wire lower part of rad-Have to bend upper front-edge/lip of rad back to clear bonnet.Used the reinforced gearbox-mounting as this motor is slightly heavier than old one.All fitted like a glove!

Only had to cut 'ring'off end of chokewire to make it fit carb
Acc-wire fitted right on.
New shorter clutchwire to be fitted tomorrow.Used Roffens alternator to be able to use correct connectors ,fitted right on again.Made slight bend on
upper-alt.bracket to get fanbelts fit in line..
-I've been assisting my mechanic all day to keep nice progress -
Or as he would say -to see to it he didn't get One moment of peace&quiet!
Monday morning is marked as D-Day for start-up and testing after wheel-alignment etc.. Hope it all works!! -R.
 
Fingers Crossed

Cross every body part (2 of) you've got, Reidar -starting with your fingers!
Everyone in the worldwide R4 fraternity are waiting for 'R' day - champagne at the ready.:D
 
Brian-Marra! All good wishes received with 'umble mind'
have worn down living-room carpet by pacing nervously in circles lately.My praying-carpet is a mere Rug by now,it's all in the hands
of the Lord by now! -R.
 
D-DAY!
After some long hours of tinkering about with lots of small pieces to make it work Roffen was started up this afternoon!
-just a careful warm-up as fan at first wouldn't work when bridged so used big drier to blow cold air into rad.Lots of smoke and fumes due to diesel I had poured into cylinders to loosen 10yr's of standstill...
-Started after 4seconds and run at 2ooorpm.as he didn't care for
non-choke running..
New unused rad turned out to be leaking and as it has plastic-housing on it I will simply throw it away .
Ordered new orig.from Renault France who promised it would be here in 4 FOUR days -I think they send by Exorcet-rocket these days!
Only other snag is the bracket (on Lhs of bellhousing) to hold the clutchwire-Sock/Jacket/Schroud??? it has a weird angle so wire ends up in a Very Tight Z...
This bracket is screwed on from rear into bellhousing by One bolt will think about it when I go to sleep tonight ..but am greatful for Any input from you gang.

This is the clutch-wire that pulls rearwards on the clutcharm so is fairly short,but the one I have seems very short at about 50cm...
Think I will have to modify the bracket If I can get to it that is-
Or maybe make new one.Looks best way to place it would be to drill a hole in Lhs-engine-bracket and pull wire through-If I go in front of bracket it gets Too sharply bent ,same if I go rear of engine-bracket ..
Anyways -Roffen is alive again and the motor sounded very 'tight' and nice! No leaks from motor/gearbox or driveshafts/gearing (wheels in mid-air)smooth. -R.
 
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