Tool for Cylinder head bolt removal

[mojobaby]

It looks like I'm going to have to take off my cylinder head to have a look at the pistons on my 850 R4. I've been trying to budge them for a week and they're still stuck. I'll continue to put Diesel into the spark plug apertures for another week (tip from Andy-thanks!) and if they haven't moved by then I'll do the cylinder head.

The only thing that worries me is that the Heynes manual says that there's a special socket tool to remove the bolts.
"there is no other way-you will break something if you attempt this task without these tools"

I took the manual to a large Renault garage and after 30 minutes they told me that the tool does not exist anymore.Won't a normal socket spanner work?

 

[Geoff in the Gully]

The special tool is a thin-walled long socket. I've never used it.
The problem is getting clearance around the valve rockers.
If you loosed the adjustment on the rocker enough you can move it past the pushrod, flip it over and then you can fit a normal socket onto the head bolt.
Works for me and I don't think my sockets are particularly thin-walled.

 

[Cyprus Andy]

good grief I have never known that not to work !
Is the block "filled right up" ?....
I mean is the oil drained out, and the engine block filled to the top of the pistons with diesel ?
to allow the pistons to be fully immersed in the diesel ?

 

[mojobaby]

Andy, I put a pipe in there and blow bubbles. Cylinder 1 and 4 are down, number 2 and 3 are up and can't take much diesel. Cylinder 1 is the only one that drains. The diesel just stays in the other cylinders without draining
I've put the car in first gear, jacked it up and I'm trying to turn the front wheel. Doesn't budge!
The car has never worked since I've had it. I've been working on the wheels and brakes and other things for the past year.

 

[Cyprus Andy]

Andy, I put a pipe in there and blow bubbles. Cylinder 1 and 4 are down, number 2 and 3 are up and can't take much diesel. Cylinder 1 is the only one that drains. The diesel just stays in the other cylinders without draining
I've put the car in first gear, jacked it up and I'm trying to turn the front wheel. Doesn't budge!
The car has never worked since I've had it. I've been working on the wheels and brakes and other things for the past year.

Ok so I understand you have diesel in the "top" of cylinders 2 and 3 ........I FILLED the complete block on my 100E so the diesel was below and above the pistons, your going to have to drop the oil anyway as anything that has passed by No1 cylinder is already in the oil sump so fill the block up to the top with diesel, it cant hold much more than a couple of gallons...My thinking was if the diesel was right up to the bottom of the piston rings, possibly passing the lower ones or freeing them off as it worked up it should do the trick.. I filled my block through the oil filler until it was covering the rocker shaft to be sure the whole engine was covered. Once it has freed them off even partially they should go with a little pressure, just not too much to dislodge the liners though ..
Good luck

 

[mojobaby]

I had already drained the oil before I started. I've now put in 3 liters of Diesel-thats all I had but I'll get some more tomorrow. I also put my old oil filter back in, no point in messing up the new one.

 

[Cyprus Andy]

I had already drained the oil before I started. I've now put in 3 liters of Diesel-thats all I had but I'll get some more tomorrow. I also put my old oil filter back in, no point in messing up the new one.

How are you getting along with the pistons ? any sign of movement yet ?

 

[mojobaby]

Thanks Andy, I put in the initial 3 liters, then another 5 and today another 5 went in. I had barely finished when Diesel started gushing out the bottom. I put a bucket there to catch it and collected about 3 liters. So 10 liters is probably the capacity of the sump. It came out of the aperture in the sump cover at the bottom of the flywheel.
I'm guessing that the gasket is not fitted correctly, or is there any other place where it could leak out, like the crank shaft bush.

I still try to turn the front wheel while its in gear, about 3-4 times a day.
The Diesel that leaked out the bottom was pretty dirty and when I took the rocker cover off, everything is very clean inside, so the Diesel is definitely cleaning the engine.

 

[Cyprus Andy]

Some of the old Fords I worked on had an engine breather on the side of the block but as far as I know the R4 has only one breather which is on the rocker cover and go's back to the carb ? I could be wrong as other members will have a better idea of R4 engines, but I am pretty sure it should not be finding a way out of the engine like you said......I suppose it has given you another thing to look at and repair which you might not have found so all I can say is keep trying as long as there is diesel around the pistons it "should" free it off.....its a lot of hassle but good luck and keep us informed of the progress..........

 

[Geoff in the Gully]

There's no actual seal around the crankshaft at the flywheel end, just an oil 'throw' so I suppose some diesel would find its way past, but I would have expected it to gush.

 

[mojobaby]

Hi Geoff,maybe I exaggerated a bit, I collected 3 liters in about 10 minutes. So its actually not possible to fill up the entire block.
Going to try your method tomorrow:- loosen the adjustment stud enough so that I can move it away from the pushrod, then flip it up to get access to the bolts.

I searched through the posts back to Jan 2007 and someone else had the same problem. The solution was exactly what you've told me although Angel said this:-
You can't remove the rocker shafts on the R4 with the head on the car!!! At least the rear half of it. I use a low height 14 mm 3/8" drive socket that I insert easily between the rockers,then fit an extension on it.
Although it is a safe precaution to clamp down the liners, they are usually rusted solid on the block and cannot be dislodged so easily. But of course, better safe than sorry...

I wouldn't mind seeing a photo of that tool, maybe I can make one

 

[angel]

I will take a photo of this socket when I go to my workshop. It is a random 14mm socket I had from an old bicycle tool. I shortened it from the hexagon side as much as I could so that I still had some 10-12 mm of hexagon height. At the square drive end (3/8") I ground down its outer diameter as much as it was possible. Even then it had to be fitted on the bolt first, then the extension fitted as space is really limited there.
If you go this way try to find the best quality of socket possible as tightening torque (and loosening of seized bolts!) is at the limit of 3/8" tools.

 

[mojobaby]

If you go this way try to find the best quality of socket possible as tightening torque (and loosening of seized bolts!) is at the limit of 3/8" tools.

I broke my rachet spanner today on one of the cylinder head bolts (14mm)!! I've had it for 15 years, so that really pissed me off!

All the rockers were seized onto the rocker shaft, so that took 2 days to free. I removed the rocker adjustment stud and the nut, slid the rocker along the shaft and removed the pushrod. That allowed the rocker to pivot upwards, leaving plenty of space to access the bolts.
The bolts were really tight, but Number 7 was the worst, and that broke my spanner.
Anyway, some photos to show my progress..............

 

[Azazello]

Aren't you supposed to move the car in 3rd - 4th gear in order to free the pistons?

 

[mojobaby]

Thanks Azazello, I tried that in the beginning and nothing happened. I was so scared that I might break the piston rings or damage the liners.
If that happened I wouldn't know what to do, its beyond my expertize! So I'm doing it the gentle way and the slow way.

So I bought a new rachet spanner and socket spanner and today all my bolts are loose and the manifold is off.
Tomorrow I will take off the cylinder head to take a first look at the pistons.

 

[mojobaby]

The head is finally off! And you're going to say...... "s#*t, look at that mess!!" .....just like I did.
Could get interesting from now on. Thanks everyone for your help and support

 

[malcolm]

Doesn't look that bad. I had expected to see rusty bores, but the end two look good. Lots of rusty stuff around the liners though. I'd be inclined to remove the liners and clean it all out. See the Renault 5 in the restoration link for something similar.

 

[Cyprus Andy]

how's things progressing Mojobaby .........are you winning the battle ?

 

[mojobaby]

Yes I am! Today was a big breakthrough!

2 weeks ago I jacked the car up and put it in gear and have been rocking the wheel back and forth. I did it 4-5 times a day for 10 minutes at a time, and at the end of each day I gained about 2 millimeters of movement on the piston. I used your Diesel trick as well which helped with lubrication. By yesterday evening, cylinders 2+3 were all the way down and 1+4 were at the top.

Today, I put the cylinder head, minus the spark plugs, back on (to keep the liners in place). Then clamped the jumper cable negative to the back of the started motor and the positive cable to the positive and turned the key. And it worked! I let the pistons run up and down a few times, then turned off.

I now have forearms like Popeye from trying to turn that wheel, and have also wrecked my back, but I'm happy. Thanks for your help and advice

 

[Cyprus Andy]

Yes I am! Today was a big breakthrough!

2 weeks ago I jacked the car up and put it in gear and have been rocking the wheel back and forth. I did it 4-5 times a day for 10 minutes at a time, and at the end of each day I gained about 2 millimeters of movement on the piston. I used your Diesel trick as well which helped with lubrication. By yesterday evening, cylinders 2+3 were all the way down and 1+4 were at the top.

Today, I put the cylinder head, minus the spark plugs, back on (to keep the liners in place). Then clamped the jumper cable negative to the back of the started motor and the positive cable to the positive and turned the key. And it worked! I let the pistons run up and down a few times, then turned off.

I now have forearms like Popeye from trying to turn that wheel, and have also wrecked my back, but I'm happy. Thanks for your help and advice

Great news I am pleased you managed to get a result, what do the liners look like ? Are they ok for re-use ? best to check they have not moved during the process though............slowly slowly or as they say here sigar sigar