64-67 Clutch Fun

[malcolm]

Wondering whether anyone can shed any light on a weird clutch modification found in Ornella the '65 Renault 4?

Fredrick the Frog has been having fun again. Ornella's clutch had been slipping when I bought her. This turned out to be partly due to poor adjustment, but decent adjustment didn't seem to improve things a lot so I thought I'd take the engine out to have a look.



First thing to jump out at me were the remains of the carbon release bearing. A replacement clutch and clutch plate had been fitted and the hole in the release bearing plate was too big for the release bearing. Here's Ornella's clutch plate (left) and an original Renault one salvaged from a '67 car (right):



Ornella's clutch plate also seemed taller than the original part, and the spring tension was much less than the original:



Ornella's release fork had been modified too. I can't imagine what trouble someone has had with this clutch in the past. See the differences in the angle of the ends of the release fork:



The mod has involved a strengthening plate being welded on. I'll trial fit and find out if my original Renault one is bent and Ornella's one has been straightened and reinforced, or whether some other funny business has been going on.



I'd hoped to buy a new clutch, but parts for pre-68 Renault 4s seem thin on the ground and I've not been able to find a replacement. The original Renault clutch is from a 18,000 mile from new car (that had otherwise rusted into the ground), so I'm planning to clean that up and fit it - still seems to be within spec.

 

[Le Champ]

Clutch Cable Problem?

Hi Malc + Fred, It could be that some 'gifted village mechanic'has modified the arm to accomodate a replacement clutch cable that was the wrong 'adjustable' length, i.e. He has used whatever he had lying round. It would be useful to compare it with a verified correct cable. My renault supplied gtl replacement was quite different to the original - the bulkhead cable gromit was much smaller although the adjustable length (happily) was identical. I was worried it would be wobbily:eek: but it was ok. Some 'numpty' had poured vast qauntities of heavy engine oil down through the old one which doubled its resistance - it was actually frayed. Sorry to drone on...... shut up Brian......keep it short....:smile:

.

 

[malcolm]

It would seem odd if it were only because of the differences in the clutch release plate as that would have forced a modification in the other direction.

It's had a new cable too - I'll look at that. It is difficult to source anything for pre-68 cars these days so likely as not it'll be the wrong one. I have RHD cables but not LHD ones. Would it be as daft as it sounds to swap from LHD to RHD as part of a clutch change?

 

[beagle]

Is the clutch cable the same as a GTL? I've a new LHD cluch cable if you want it? Still in its original renault packet.
Tim

 

[angel]

What happened, as I see it form some thousand kilometers away... :-)

Someone in the past overhauled the pressure plate and set the release fingers' height incorrectly or fitted stronger coil springs. (did Ornella have an extremely heavy pedal?).

Now about the release arm, maybe they bent it forward to gain more adjustment at some point of the car's life? But it seems silly to me to do this at the fork, since it is a lot easier to "play" with the threaded rod.

Beagle, the GTL LHD clutch cable is too short and has completely different ends. Your best solution Malcolm would be to have the cable made, I guess it will not be expensive (at least here it is not!).

P.S. why did you take the whole engine off?

 

[malcolm]

P.S. why did you take the whole engine off?

I noticed the 3 speed transmission mount is quite long - would removing that generate enough space to remove the gearbox without removing the steering rack and radiator? The difference was only a few wires once I'd removed those.

I've cleaned up the engine and gearbox today. I took the rocker cover into the paint shop to have it colour matched. But I don't have a good match - my new paint is a little too dark and too blue.

You mentioned you were looking for engine paint. I think the green paint used for old Morris engines (search for MOWOG) would be close if it was mixed with a little white. The paint I bought is synthetic rather than special engine enamel so might not survive under as much heat as proper engine enamel.

The clutch plate had been a replacement - I suspect it is the wrong part, but it could just be badly specified for the job. The friction plate was AP, and I'd imagine the rest came in the same kit. Though if that were the case why was the release bearing not replaced? You might be right.

I've taken the spring clips on the release bearing side (not the clutch release springs) and fitted them to my Renault clutch as the old ones were rusty. I'll put it back together with original 41 year old parts. My new air filter is also an original Renault part from the same doner car.

 

[angel]

In the past, I removed the bulky 354 gearboxes from the top (therefore removing rack, radiator and clutch cables). Anyway easier for me than taking engine off...
Yesterday, I had to replace the 354 gearbox of my grey '71 with the correct 334 I (finally!) found. So I decided to try to remove it from below. It worked a treat, even though it was a little tight at the top with the steering rack on. The 334 I put back was another story, much more compact and lighter and went straight in.
In all cases it is necessary to remove the gearbox mounting, and also the tubular crossmember to allow the engine to be lowered forwards.

Nice idea about the paint! I have loads of Morris engine green (I have some customers with Mk1 Minis...) and I will give it a try with white!

 

[malcolm]

That's a good trick. I've had a GTL HA0 4 speeder out from the top before (pain to get at the bellhousing bolts on those). Will have a look at removing them from underneath next time.

I'm tidying up the engine bay a little while the engine is out. There was 45 years of oil sludge in there.

 

[malcolm]

All is explained!

The photo below shows the clutch lever at full travel - it's only 1mm away from one of the gearbox mounting bolts. I suspect the old lever had been modified to increase clearance. I can remove the washer if I run into problems.

The system seems to have been designed to use a much thicker release bearing. Though I can't find evidence that thicker bearings were ever fitted.

The clutch seems to operate properly now, and it feels much more like a clutch - the old one was on-off in operation. The new one feels more linear, but I've not had the car running yet.

 

[angel]

Strange...the release bearing looks OK.

Maybe the release finger height had been set incorrectly?

 

[malcolm]

I don't think the clutch I used had ever been out of the car. It came out of a 1967 car that had covered 18,000 miles from new, and had the factory red paint. I replaced the clutch, backplate and release bearing.

I've been out for a drive and it feels OK, but I did find I had slightly too little clearance between the release bearing and the clutch, so I've adjusted that to 3mm.