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Distributor problem...???

C

Chris

Enthusiast
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Hello everyone,

I hope you can help me get to the bottom of a little problem that's even got Jon, the brilliant Landrover mechanic who sorts my R4 out from time to time, stumped!!

A while back, my 4 juddered quite a lot in all gears and all speeds, to the extent that I couldn't really drive her. Jon, (mentioned above), tracked down the problem to the distributor. Apparantly, where the two wires from the starter motor, (I think!), feed into the distributor, there was a tiny problem - one of the wires was coming slightly loose and causing the engine to short, hence the juddering and stalling. He crimped the offending wire back into place and all seemed well...

Two/three weeks later, the problem resurfaced. Wire was adjusted again, and off I went. Then the same happened again. This time, Jon said he accidentally left the vacuum-pump (??? - I think that's what he said!) disconnected when fiddling, and suddenly the engine was running smoothly. If I've got the terminology wrong, it's an insulated wire connection that runs into the distributor on the right-hand side as you look from the driver's side of the engine bay.

Anyway, even though the engine DOES run much better, I can still detect a slight lack of smoothness, a little 'jump' in the revs, particularly when the engine's just ticking over. Also, when idle, everything shakes just that little bit more than it should...

What could it be?? Is it the distributor, or is it something to do with fuel pumps/pipes, etc etc...???? I just get the feeling that it's a tiny little problem, (I hope!!), which only requires a little tweak or two, and then my 4 really will be flying!!!! Can any of you help us get to the bottom of it...?????


Here's hoping!!


Many thanks,



Chris
 
It's probably best to start with a known condition. I had a similar issue that went away when I finally got around to replacing the ignition points and setting the timing. It's probably worth doing that before anything else.

While you are looking at the points check if they are really pitted. Normally after 6000 miles they will have a single pit in the middle of the contact and a litttle bulge in the same place on the other contact. The rest of the faces should ber fairly new looking. If they look like they've been completely destroyed then your capacitor (the second small wire on the distributor) has failed.

After that, the distributor cap has 4 contacts. If they look fairly straight you can give them a clean with a screwdriver. If they've been eroded away you'll need a new distributor cap. Chack that the little carbon brush in the middle (on a little spring) hasn't broken or fallen off.

I replaced my ignition leads this morning. The end had fallen off one of the leads and one cylinder didn't work too well - but only on damp mornings.

Spark plugs are pretty reliable, but it's worth going for a run, letting the car cool, then removing a couple to check the colour near the electrodes. Black means oil contamination or too rich. White means too lean (air leak in the inlet maniofold like your missing vacuum pipe normally). Normal is a light brown colour.

The only other thing I can think of at the moment is that summer has arrived with a flash and a bang. The end of the inlet pipe to the air filter should be moved from your exhaust to the holder on the inner wing.

If it still happens after all that then there is something fun to diagnose. Post back and I'll have a good think.

:clementi:
 
Chris, this is one of those problems that it's difficult to fully diagnose at a distance. Distributors are fairly basic things that need to be in good condition and set up right to function properly.
There were four different makes fitted to the GTL's - SEV, Femsa, Ducellier, and post 1986 Marelli. All have their little quirks but basically a distributor must not have excessive play in the bearings, the points must be correctly fitted, gapped and with minimal pitting, the condenser (capacitor) must be in A1 condition, and most importantly, both the vacuum advance unit and the mechanical weights MUST be functioning correctly to allow the correct advance over the engine rev range.

The first thing to check is the vacuum advance unit. Remove the dist cap and fit a suitable piece of rubber hose on the unit. Suck this and check to see there is movement on the points baseplate. Do it a few times to make sure. If there is no movement, the vac unit is shot and you would need a new one. Check to see if it's still available from Renaults. If not then buy a good secondhand distributor with a working vac unit.

If your vac unit is good then give your distributor a service:

It is easier to remove the distributor to check all the above. Hold the base in a vice with soft jaws/rag etc and remove the vac unit and points/baseplate etc to gain access to the mechanical weights. Hold firmly the drive at the bottom and twist the cam. You should be able to see the weights move outwards and then return again. Wiggle the shaft to check for play in the lower bearing. Clean the body thoroughly in degreaser and lubricate the weights with engine oil. Fit the points baseplate (this usually has the top bearing included depending on the make) and check for play, fit the vac unit. Fit/gap new points and condenser, lubricate the top bearing. Fit a new cap if necessary.

Fit the distributor in exactly the same position you removed it and start the engine. If you have a dwell meter check to see it's within range, if not adjust the points to obtain the correct reading. Then time the distributor using a strobe. These engines are fussy so set it at 5 degrees BTDC and retard if you get any pinking.

If you still get juddering, look at the plugs and leads - however these are usually very reliable. Regarding the slight rise in tickover, it could be an air leak in the manifold gasket or carb to manifold gasket.

Providing your compressions are OK and your tappets correctly adjusted, this should be an easy fix. Hope I have not made things too complicated!!

By the way, Boyer Bransden make a little unit that stops points burning out. Fit this and forget about points replacement for many thousands of miles. I fitted one to my R4GTL and the points are as good as new 40,000 on.

Steve
 
Chris, I bought my R4 with a distributor problem. I'm fairly handy with a spanner; my brother is a mechanic; we both have access to a garage owned by a mechanic. The three of us tried everything, all th usual stuff; cleaning and gapping the points, changing the condenser, dismantling and cleaning the distibutor. This went on for days but still ended up with the same symtoms as yours.
I finally noticed scuffing of the low tension wire from the points to the side of the dizzy. I taped it up and it was fine for about ten seconds. Had another look and it was scuffed again. I also noticed that the connector with the little nut could possibly be shorting out on the base plate.
I also noticed an oddly shaped piece of plastic attached to the connector and then realised that, sometime in the past, it would have had a plastic plate on it to protect the said wire from getting chewed by the bob weights inside the dizzy that spin at a rate of knots!
As an experiment I soldered a new piece of wire to the points which was a little longer than the original. I pulled out the connecting block with the little nut on it and taped it up outside the distributor body so that at no point was there a low tension short to the dizzy body. BINGO! Has run like a dream ever since.
To simplify, make sure there is no chance at all for any wiring to short out.
Oh! and whether you think you need to or not; change your condenser. It's cheap and one of the last things people check!
 
Hi, anyone know where i can get a renault 4 (73) set of points?
If not is there a suitable distributor that i could use as a replacement? Thanks for your help...Andy. :oops:
 
Andy, when I was having the above mentioned trouble with my dizzy I went to Halfords. The beauty of Halfords is that they can search their data base to see which stores have them in stock. They didn't have mine in stock (to fit a Femsa dizzy with points under the base plate!) but gave me the number for Lucas who of course make points for all vehicles. I've lost the number but I'm sure you can get it. You could ring my local store at Bangor.
 
Chaps, thanks for all that advice!!


As I suspected, it sounds like it's an annoying little problem rather than anything major... Well, it can't be anything major as she has just passed her MOT which I'm chuffed to bits about!!

I've printed off all your advice, and I'm going to take it round to my mechanic friend and see what we can make of it all.

There is something else... Even though my 4 has just passed her MOT, I have been advised that she will need a replacement lower off-side ball joint at some point. Does anyone know where I can get one?? Would Liam be the best bet??? When I do get my hands on one, I'm going to take it round to the same mechanic as before and we can kill two birds with one stone and sort out the ball-joint as well as this distributor thingy!

I'll keep you posted!!


Thanks again,



Chris
 
Chris, well done with your mot. You're really going to love this car. It does exactly what you want it to do. It's a good honest, simple, practical motor without all the technicalities (expenses) of more modern vehicles! I've got a Rangerover Vogue SE and am in a quandry as to which one to keep. As the R4 is so cheap to run I'll probably keep both!

Anyway, my R4 failed on a lower ball joint recently. Clementine is right, you can get them for a fiver off ebay but then you've got to add the p&p. If your mechanic friend is in the trade he will get one from his factor for £10.50 if he's not it will be £12.50 over the counter or next morning delivery. He won't need a manual, he'll do it blindfold in half an hour.

Your mechanic friend will also know where to look for shorts in your dizzy if, in fact that's the problem.

Keep us posted!
 
Hello again, everyone!


I haven't got round to checking out ebay for ball-joints yet as where I work is being audited - mountains of paper to produce....

Just another question. When I take my 4 to my mechanic to sort out the ball-joint and that irritating distributor problem, what is the best points setting etc for him to set????


Cheers for now and I'll keep you posted...


Chris
 
Thanks for that Mike!


I know that the same question must have been asked on this forum, but I ain't got time to trawl through all the posts....!!

OK, so that's the distributor problem covered, the points setting covered, so now it's time for part 3!!! The paintwork on my 4 USED to be metallic silver, but the laquer has peeled off and now it's very dull. I've heard that it's possible to buy a kind of laquer, so am I right to presume that once I've sorted/treated the few rusty bits and given the car a good clean, I can just paint/spray the laquer on...??????

Sounds too simple and good to be true...


Cheers,



Chris
 
Chris, sorry not too hot on paintwork. My guess would be to feather the edges of the remaining laquer back whilst at the same time brightening up the exposed paint. Then as you say, hopefully just respray over the affected area and hope there is no reaction with the existing paint. Maybe try a small area such as inside the tail gate to see if any reaction occurs. If you put a couple of coats on you should have sufficient depth to flat back to existing laquer. Good luck!
Mike
 
Laquer is horrid. I once tried to repaint the laquer on a Citroen BX bonnet where the original stuff had peeled off. I flatted the old stuff and sprayed a new coat on. It looked better but not great. You might have more success in flatting the old paint and respraying the colour in cellulose.
 
Hi again, chaps.


Sorry about the delay in getting back to you all about the problems with my 4's distributor, but my mechanic mate, Jon, only saw the car last Friday. His remit: fit the new ball-joint, and then read through all your advice and try to sort out this annoying problem once and for all!!

Ball-joint, no problem. Distributor?? Well, one new set of spark-plugs, another new dizzy cap, a new set of points and one new condensor later and while she runs better, there's STILL a little stutter there!!!!!!!!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It kind of feels like a car does when you've left the choke out too long, and it stutters and judders a little bit particularly when decellerating, usually after a little 60-70 mph run on the dual-carriageway, but also in low gears. I'm stumped, and so's Jon. I can still use the car everyday and she's done about 450 miles in the last month, but all locally - I want to be able to scoot up to London or down into deepest Cornwall without worrying about something going 'snap', but we don't know what to do next.

Any ideas???!!!!!


Thanks,



Chris
 
Chris, could you tell us your engine type and distributor type? Have you ever replaced the distributor? Maybe a wrong one could have been fitted. By saying wrong, I mean one with centrifugal (and vacuum) advance curves that will not suit your engine. My next move would be to check the timing (with a stroboscope!) but make sure that the points are correctly adjusted first bu checking the dwell angle, not only the air gap. From my experience, it seems that the high compression GTL engines are very sensitive to even 1-2 degrees of incorrect timing, compared to 845cc where you could not sense any difference from 4-10 BTDC. On both engines there is a notch on the flywheel. On 3-bearing engines there is a pionter on the block, and when those two are aligned the engine is set at TDC, thereforey ou should make a new mark on the flywheel for the correct advance. On the 5-bearing engines there are two lines cast on the clutch bellhousing. The right one (viewing from the front of the vehicle) is 4 deg. BTDC, the left one is TDC.Don't forget to remove the vacuum pipe if you have such a distributor. If you do all the above and you still have trouble, check the vacuum advance unit by removing the carburettor end of the pipe and sucking through it, you should feel that the vacuum can be holded. Maybe you have a vacuum leak there (or anywhere else??)
 
Does anybody know the correct gapping for tuning (that is the intake valves and exhaust valves)? Also, the correct gap of spark plugs.
I just wanted to tune my Renault 4 so that I may be successful to avoid black smoke coming out when the engine is accelerated.
Thanks.
 
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