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Head gasket

kevinandkate

Sadly no longer an owner
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Fifi has blown her top. It happened a while ago having been left ticking over and the electric fan not cutting in. Now she is shedding water at a vast rate and would appear to need a new head gasket. Having looked on the local motor factors web site here there are a confusing aray of head gaskets available without any indication as to which one fits what. They are all for the 34 ch 1.0 TL but vary in dimensions particularly thickness and say uniquely for ZKS 111.630 or OE 7701418097 0r code du moteur CIC708 or any variation of the above. The thicknesses range from 1.2 to 1.75 mm and cost from 19.5 euros to 36.95 euros. Any ideas if it matters which one and anything to be wary of when doing the job?. Sorry for being long winded.
 
I am surprised to hear that head gaskets of differing thicknesses are still available... They used to be available, so that compression ratio remained as thought even after the head had been skimmed. Why one should be more expensive than the other is beyond my imagination...maybe they come from different manufacturers?

The head will definitely need to be skimmed, so it would be a good idea to have it done first, then decide about the gasket thickness (of course having measured the thickness of the original gasket first). But if I were you, I would fit the thinnest gasket, as compression on the C1C is not that high, and it will respond well to having it raised a little.

If you follow the instructions of mr. Haynes, you will find that it is a fairly straightforward job. Make sure you find a way of retaining the cylinder liners immediately after removing the head. If the new gasket comes with tightening instructions, follow these, and be careful as there is a bit of tightening, loosening, and re-tightening on these heads.
 
This is from an earlier post and it's worth following:

I've used my 'patented' method since the early 1980's. It was when I discovered the reasons why British Leyland 2200cc Princess models had tendencies to develop cracks in their cylinder heads.
Before fitting a second cylinder head on a customer's Princess in one year I prodded one of the bolt holes with an electrician's screwdriver and it was full of swarf from the manufacturing process. All other holes were equally as bad. A little light came on and I realised that the reason for the cracks was because the head could not be properly torqued down.

Since then, before I replace a head I do the following:

1) Stuff clean rag in all the orifices of the block except the bolt holes.
2) Thoroughly clean the surface of the block using a Stanley Knife blade, wet and dry paper lubed with WD40 or similar.
3) Stick a small screwdriver in each bolthole to check for swarf and crap.
4) Run the compressor up to 100psi, wrap the end of the airline nozzle with rag and blow out each hole. Keep a grip on the rag to prevent swarf and carbon going everywhere.
5) Repeat if necessary. Then run a tap down each hole to clean burnt carbon particles from the threads. Blow out all the holes again.
6) Remove the rag from the orifices and throughly clean the block surface and bores with thinners so everything is perfectly clean.
7) Fit the gasket without any sealant or grease (light greasing okay on copper asbestos gaskets). Carefully drop on an equally clean cylinder head that has been thoroughly overhauled and checked for straightness.
8) Apply a very light smear of copper grease to each cylinder head bolt and tighten them down by hand using an extension and socket.
9) Then nip them up using a bar, then tighten them in the correct sequence using half the recommended torque. Then 75% of the recommended torque, then 100%.
10) After 500 miles on a cold engine. Undo each bolt one turn and then torque to the recommended figure.

By using these simple rules I never had any failures at all and I urge any of you who are carrying out any top end work to use these rules. There is nothing worse than a head gasket failure when you're miles from home and you had forgotten to renew your AA subscription :(
 
Thanks both, I don't suppose there is any point in thinking it might not need skimming? as its going to be a tad difficult in the middle of rural France to find an engineering works.
 
Appreciate the difficulty in finding an engineering works. However, if you don't have it skimmed you are taking a gamble. You could be lucky or maybe not. I have known people to get away with not having the heads skimmed but how long the job lasted I wouldn't know. If you are in the middle of nowhere then you won't have access to a surface table but if you have a piece of plate glass that would be sufficient to check for straightness. Any doubts at all - go and have it skimmed!! Remember - your engine got very cooked so hope that everything else is okay!
 
I wouldn't bother going to all the trouble of changing the head gasket without having the head skimmed either!

I also used to change a lot of Citroen XUD cylinder heads in my dim and distant past, we always just used to buy the thickest gasket available, it made things simple.

I Like Simple I do!
 
Ok then looks like a skim will have to be done. Strange thing is, performance has been unaffected by the gasket leak, no steam from the exhaust since the first time and the only indicator is the loss of coolant and bubbles in the expansion tank when shes ticking over.
 
Have you bled the system to make sure it's not just an air lock causing further overheating?

Sounds similar to the failure on my van - leak just at the top of the cylinder over the liner into the water. When running the compression would force air into the water and push all the water out, but it would hold some pressure and the water wouldn't go back into the cylinder. In the morning when the engine was completely cold the cooling system would hiss when the expansion bottle cap was removed.
 
Thanks Malcolm I hadn't thought of that, I was a bit puzzled as I said that performance wasn't affected. Will try bleeding it and see if thats the problem, would be great if it was don't really fancy doing the job in the 36 degree heat we are having.
 
Performance normally isn't affected by a head gasket failure - that does other annoying things like pushing water into the oil or blowing the water out of the system.

Sure there are posts on here about bleeding but essentially put the expansion bottle on top of the engine. Fill from the rad. Then squeeze the top hose to pump water into the engine. Undo the rad cap and let it fill from the expansion bottle (with the cap loose on that to allow water to move). Rinse and repeat. And turn the heater on and let the air out of the valve on that. I'll get Frederick to do a page on that.

But after overheating definitely bleed the system and try again. Those bubbles could well be air left in there after overheating - the thing that causes the water to fall out is boiling and that leaves air in there. And make sure the cooling system is pressurising properly - if there's a leak, perhaps a hose, water pump, radiator cap seal, or expansion bottle seal, the system will boil before it gets to the temperature necessary to turn the fan on. Pressurised cooling systems boil at a higher temperature than unpressurised ones, and the car is set up assuming a pressurised system.

Clean the connectors on the fan and the radiator thermostat. Connect the fan directly to make sure it comes on when it has electricity. Bleed the cooling system. Run the car, take it for a short drive and let it idle - the fan should switch on and off when it's hot before it bubbles.

If that works then wait until the following day. When the engine is completely cold bleed the system again if it needs it. Go for a drive (10km) and leave the car sulking in a corner until the following morning when it's cold again. Undo the expansion bottle cap and if it hisses then there's not the same quantity of stuff in there as there was yesterday and the head gasket needs doing. See above for good advice on that.
 
Thanks again Malcolm and Steve for the detailed advice, who needs a Haynes Manual.
 
Actually............every R4 owner should have a manual. Worth consulting before posting questions - Malcolm and I spend 24 hours a day reading our Haynes Manuals and we are wearing the pages out!! Maybe we should rewrite the manuals to fill in the bits that Haynes have left out!!!
 
That'd be good Steve, when you've got a minute!

:)
 
Some days ago the temp light went on.
The day after the mechanic said it was an air bubble in the cooling system.
The light sometime goes on, sometimes not.
This evening, warming the motor, expansion tank opened, when I give gas air bubble come up from the cooling water.
Head gasket?
I think definitely yes...

What is the "haynes manual"? Is something specific for r4 or generic?

Andrea scripsit.
 
It is only for 850 and 1100 engines... I had a look on the web and it seems there are no haynes manual for my 950 r4...
But I found some general mechanics and welding manual on amule...
Maybe it is time I learn welding!

Andrea scripsit.
 
956cc engine is just an under-bored 1108cc, so everything about this engine is OK about yours, too.
There is an RTA (Revue Technique Automobile) book that covers only 956 and 1108 R4s, if your French is OK you may be interested in this one.
 
I did not know this omology between the two engines...
I understand a bit of french, but not very much; so I think I should look for the haynes manual for the 1108 engine. I have also found a copy of the original manual for mechanics... in italian I hope...
I'm not very good as a mechanic, just oil changes and simple things, but I like to understand what's going on my car and to have the chance to do some other little repair by my own...

Andrea scripsit.
 
Is this the right manual I should buy for my model?
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400201393592&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Well, I read it is not for 956cc engines, as we said above, but it covers 1108 engine and the more recent versions (till 1986, mine is a model from 1987 I think, but at least with the same dashboard...).

I think I am going to buy this one, too:
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390296910410&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I already have the MR175 in italian, but the MR61 seems to be more complete... on the body side, almost...

Andrea scripsit.
 
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