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More power - again !

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Perkins

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I know this is a perenial and well worn question, but someone out there in R4 land will have all the answers.

We have a 1986 R4 GTL, which with only 60,000 on the clock is in great condition, uses no oil and is very reliable. We don't want to burn the road up, but it would be nice not to have to sit at roundabouts for 10 mins waiting for a large enough gap, or to be able to overtake the odd tractor/trailer now and again. So, we need a bit more umph, but I am loathed to drop in a bigger engine, as the current one is in such good order - although it is not beyond the realms of posibility.

My question is, as the Mk1 R5s are so hard to come by now, are there any Mk2 R5 bits I can easily add - carbs, distributor, in-take, out-take manifolds etc . Our local scrap yard is full of 'super 5s', including several late campus models.

I am assuming that as the second generation 5 has a transverse engine, that if all else fails, it is not an option to drop a later 1.4 engine into a 4 ?

Has anyone out there modified their R4 with 1.1 R5 parts and did it make a noticable difference ?

Thanks for any help.

Perkins
 
Before I forget - here's some good info about the R5 Mk2 carbs etc - http://www.renault4.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=21 and a more general one about the bigger engines - http://www.renault4.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=58

A Hennessy HotUp Kit helps a lot. That's a carb from the Mk1 Renault 5 plus the inlet manifold (which has a bigger hole in it and different carb mountings) plus the rocker cover (for the throttle linkage), plus the waterpump (for carb water heating though you could stick with the R4 hot air method). Needs the air filter too.

Can't see why Mk2 carbs couldn't be used apart from the different exhaust exit position (probably foul the chassis or suspension). Though the R5 Mk2 engine itself has the waterpunp at the wrong end so wouldn't fit in a R4 without a lot of cutting.

Just about any Mk1 R5 engine will go in without too much trouble (apart from the Gordini where you need to move the steering column). But a shame to get rid of the engine you have unless you want masses of power.

The Mk2 R5 carb and inlet manifold are probabaly the best way forwards. I've got those on mine, and they do make a surprising difference.
 
malcolm said:
The Mk2 R5 carb and inlet manifold are probabaly the best way forwards. I've got those on mine, and they do make a surprising difference.
Click to expand...

think youve confused yourself malcolm :confused:
mk2 manifold has completely different spacing to mk1 5

alll 85 onwards 1.1 C1E (transverse type ), 1.2 C1G ,1.4 CIJ C2J used in 5 (MK2) 9 11 19 Clio + Twingo use completely different port spacing on head and manifold meaning the manifold will as malcolm suggested point the wrong way

also crank pulley and waterpump setup is no use for R4

best way forward is firstly check existing setup is correct points dist timing carb valve clearances manifold gaskets etc

failing that go MK1 5 1108 setup (if only i had kept all of mine :( and not thrown them all away 10 + yrs ago ) but even rarer now than they were in 2004 !!

dont forget i do have a good 1300 5 gtl engine with ha1 5sp box i will sell if any one makes me a high enough offer to dig it out of my lock up :wink:

cheers--- paul
 
Thanks, Malcolm and Paul,

I'll have to spread my search a bit further to find a Mk1. You would think being here in France that there would be loads of them, but the french don't seem interested in keeping their old cars going. I suppose it's a case of there were so many around, that they just weren't valued - hence they have all been crushed long ago !

I have spent a lot of time setting our R4 up, and finally managed to get the Femsa/IF28 setup running sweetly and not pinking. I chucked out all the measuring gear and simply relied on running it up a hill in top gear and kept retarding the ignition until it just stopped. I found adding a Boyer Branson ignition module and running ona lead substitute made a huge difference.

The R4 engine must be very understressed if you can get and extra 25% + power just by adding a different R5 carb. Has anyone ever tried gasflowing/porting the 1108cc engine ?

Cheers,

Perkins
 
Porting doesn't seem too bad. The carb was a deliberate restriction on Renault's part - I assume for model differentiation with the R5. Next step after that is the exhaust system (R5 one needs to be modified a bit to fit). And I suspect R5 distributor timing would help a bit. That should get you up from 35hp to 45hp. Doesn't sound much, but takes a few seconds off the 0-60mph time.

Thanks for the correction Mr Reno. I'd no idea the Mk2 R5 port spacing was different.
 
I think the R5 1100 had an output of 48 (or 52?) HP. That would involve fitting the R5 camshaft and distributor too.
You may not be impressed by its absolute power figures but on the road it turns the R4 int a more or less "conventional" car. With higher fuel consumption, of course.
 
the only mk2 5 1108 part that will bolt on easily is the Ducellier distributor which i fitted recently to MGUEZ F6 to replace his original FEMSA

his is running on 28IF carb and after setting dwell (has external adjuster-easy) and setting the timing initially at 5 degrees and experimenting using exact same method as Perkins above it now performs the best it has since he has owned it

( although if it has low ratio box as suspected it would accelerate faster than standard car )

the original plan was MK1 5 carb and manifold off my red F6 as well but may need that for a little longer b4 it gets broken up :(

re angels comment about camshaft i too believed that the 1108 mk 1 5 engine was different internally (including compression ratios ) and if i now try and find my 688/C1E renault technical book we can have another really long thread :D

ps Malcolm as i cant easily scan these manuals shall i post them to you for you to put up next to the paint codes for us all to read ?
 
If there are just a few relevant pages I'm sure Renault won't mind if we bottow them to help keep their heritage going. Could certainly stick them up here somewhere.

I don't find the fuel consumtion much different with the R5 carb unless I'm going faster than the old carb would manage. Perhaps that's because I drive the car in a more relaxed way not feeling the need to extract the last bit of performance out. Trip from Scotland recorded something like 48mpg through the hills, and 43mpg at 80mph on the motorway. Roughly what the old carb would have managed.

Mr Haynes thinks the camshaft timing is the same R4 to R5 Mk1 1108cc, but doesn't mention the lift (and has been known to be wrong in the past).
 
mguez

...reading this disscussion of getting extra oommph from your r4, I will say that the work Mr Reno did earlier this year did really change the performance of my F6. His reccomendation to "set up"(non mechanic lingo) really well what already exists is the best strategy to take first and a less costly option aswell.It does however help to have an R4 guru such as he to do this and in that I have been fortunate. There that should massage his ego a bit.....
 
funny my beret doesnt fit any more :p

still looking for the manual
 
We are waiting for the manual. Malcolm's comment about fuel consumption makes it seem reasonable that R5 camshaft timing is different. Putting a bigger carb alone will not lead to increased fuel consumption as a lot of people think.
 
More power for 850cc?

Hi R4 friends,

are the tips for 1100cc eingine useful for the 850cc as well? Have you any ideas, how to boost 850cc engine? It´s really a little bit lazy.
:roll: Pavel
 
850s respond really well when fitted with 32mm carburettor and the accompanying distributor (R284 curve with vacuum advance). It's the setup fitted to '84-'86 R4s.
The R5 (and probably R6) 845cc engine had an output of 36 HP with the same carburettor/distributor so it must had been fitted with a different camshaft.

Two different camshafts had been fitted to R4 845, one from '62 to '72 and again '84 to '86, the other from '72 to '84, this is the best (in theory). Paul, do you have any camshaft data from R5-R6 small engines? It would be interesting to compare them.

Last but not least. A 845 in good tune is not too lazy. Things like valve clearance, valve seat condition (compression losses), timing chain condition (important!) and pistons/rings/liners are very important on these engines. So maybe you need to gather together the lost HP.
 
Hi All,
Thanks for the information and tips. I have finally managed to track down a 1.3 engine for a renault 5 with only 50,000 kms on it - that's the good news, the bad news is the price and the fact it come with an automatic gearbox attached !
Providing I can get the price down, do you know if the automatic version of the engine was in anyway different to the normal manual version, or will it just be a straight swap ?
The current owner tells me that it is 65hp, but to my knowledge it was only 55hp ?
Thank for more help,
Perkins
 
hi perkins
just been posting about cam differences in john does thread
depending on year of car (5 Auto) 78/79 has single barel carb and longer cam pulley
80/81 1300 has weber twin choke and longer cam with support bearing
and oil seal in gear box
so you may also end up changing camshafts !!
flywheels will swap ok but you will need to fit a bronze spigot bush into crank

have done all this stuff many years ago so dont blame me if my memory is a little rusty

ps cam timing on r4 1108 is 12 48 52 8 (as malcolm says) is also used on some other 1300 and 1400 engines so should run ok - too many codes to list here must get scanner working

except 688(C1E)-11 low compression vans use 14 38 53 15

keep asking -- paul

ps Angel cant find my B engine book either so no 845 info to hand
 
I have just spent an expensive day at a tuning shop trying to set up an R5 carb with all the bits on my R4. It ran very lean, would not pull or rev and would not tick over. There were no air leaks in the manifold etc and the carb was stripped several times to check for blocked jets/airways. Its now back on the 28mm and running well. Have we missed anything? I now need a new R4 carb as I had to pinch the one off my everyday car, anyone got a spare?
Allan
 
angel said:
850s respond really well when fitted with 32mm carburettor and the accompanying distributor (R284 curve with vacuum advance). It's the setup fitted to '84-'86 R4s.
The R5 (and probably R6) 845cc engine had an output of 36 HP with the same carburettor/distributor so it must had been fitted with a different camshaft.

Two different camshafts had been fitted to R4 845, one from '62 to '72 and again '84 to '86, the other from '72 to '84, this is the best (in theory). Paul, do you have any camshaft data from R5-R6 small engines? It would be interesting to compare them.

Last but not least. A 845 in good tune is not too lazy. Things like valve clearance, valve seat condition (compression losses), timing chain condition (important!) and pistons/rings/liners are very important on these engines. So maybe you need to gather together the lost HP.
Click to expand...

Hi Angel,
there is necessary to fit an other intake manifold, if I want to fit the 32mm carburettor to 850cc?
 
Yes, the stud spacing is different, and more important, you should avoid the "step" created when you fit a 28mm manifold opening directly below a 32mm butterfly. The 32mm manifold is water heated, too.
 
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