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Overheatıng advıce urgently needed from turkey

R

RuffianDick

Enthusiast
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Hi guys

Well Isabelle has made it as far as turkey on the rally but were having some overheating issues i hope you can help with.

the last week before we left was too hectic to do our cooling system overhaul unfortunately.

Weve had some boilıng water in the expansion bottle so after checking on here we have done the following...

1. flushed the coolant and rebled- it was a horrid brown colour and there were big lumps of sludge in the bottle. it now has new glycol coolant, but today we had more overheating and boiling.

2. checked the dip stıck - oil looks normal colour, not milky, also no oil in the coolant.

3. thermostat seems to be coming on, top rad hose gets very hot so i guess the water is flowing through.

4. did the fan swıtch bypass trick, fan works BUT when leaving car running for a while without bypass fan doesnt seem to come on, and its very hot here so switch is suspect. Also worth noting the side light and indicator on that side are intermittant, they def have dodgy contacts so maybe some electrical contact issues/corrosion on that side?

5. i read on here that the cooling system should be pressurised to stop it boiling - our expansion bottle has a small hole in the top so i guess it cant be pressurised!!!

SO, some questıons..

-Would there be an issue with have the fan on constantly by bypassing the swıtch?
- How easy/universal is the fan switch to fıx/replace?
- Whats the hole in the bottle all about?! was it a safety valve that has gone when under too much pressure? Should i be able to bung it somehow? does this sound like the problem?

many many thanks in advance for your help!!

Rich
 
I'm no expert, but there should not be a hole in the expansion bottle cap, otherwise it cannot be pressurised to prevent boiling at temperatures over 100 degrees Celsius. Expansion bottle caps are designed to release at a certain pressure as a safety measure. So bunging it would, I think, solve your problem, but if your expansion cap doesn't have the ability to release very high pressures, then it would be dangerous. I'd suggest finding the correct cap from a garage, if you can.

I'm sure some others here will have some advice and will be able to offer more experience.

Good luck.
 
If the system isn't pressurising there lies the problem - water boils maybe 110C when it's pressurised, and the fan doesn't come on until after a non-pressurised system has boiled.

Here's what the expansion bottle cap should look like:
bottle-cap.jpg

Should be a rubber seal under the cap. It has a pressure relief valve that that opens when the pressure gets too high to stop the hoses and radiator from bursting, so blocking up completely is probably not an option.

Maybe you can find an expansion bottle from a modern car in a scrapyard?

For filling the system be sure to fill from the radiator first, replace the cap, fill the expansion bottle and hold it above the car. Then turn the heater on full and undo the little valve sticking out of the bulkhead, and wait for water to come out. Then quickly squeeze and release the top hose until it feels like there's no air left in there. Check the expansion bottle level and done.

So, I'd fix the trouble with another cap if you can find a Renault dealer, or an expansion bottle from a scrappy. Temp switch is probably OK, and having the fan on constantly shouldn't do any harm. Try not to keep going for too long with it boiling - head gasket won't like it.
 
Cheers guys,

we forced the fan on and blocked the hole with a nail just to get us through the day, we'll try and source a new cap or bottle asap. No small renaults (4s, 5s, or clios) that ive seen here in turkey so replacement cap might be difficult, but there are a lot of renault garages so will see.

will let you know how we get on, if all goes to plan we should be in iran in a few days...

thanks again
 
It's an exciting trip - please keep us posted on progress if you get the chance. I'm envious - I've always wanted to go to Iran. Folk from there that I've met have been the most friendly and hospitable people I've ever come across (worked on a car project with IKCO once).
 
This expansion bottle cap is common on many 80s-90s Renaults, I think you will find one easily as Renaults are very common in Turkey, there is a factory too.
The hole is a check valve for venting when there is a need to draw air from the outside due to coolant expansion/contraction e.g. when overheated, then left to cool down. If it was not vented then a strong vacuum would be created that would tend to make the hoses collapse.
Anyway, if in doubt, replace the cap.

The ventilator thermo-switch is also common on other Renaults, from the problems however you describe it seems that there is a fan motor earthing problem. Clean also the terminals of the thermo-switch, they often corrode.
 
Hello all again,

yes renaults were very comman in turkey (mostly 12s) and we pulled up at a garage pointed that the cap and the guy came out with a new one in about 60 seconds, we couldnt believe how easy it was!

Our overheating saga continues however..

Were in Iran now, and yes malcolm you should visit, the people really are wonderful, they've been incredible.

Anyway, the new cap has stopped the boiling but we're now getting the overheating light A LOT, the light comes on maybe every half an hour, its making progress slow. We took the thermostat out on the advice of many iranians who all seem to do that, but it hasnt helped. Some significant things to note..

-It is very hot here.
-The fuel is poor quality low octane (tho 20p a litre! was 1.50 in turkey!), which we have been told will cause higher temps.
-A guy adjusted our carb to make it a little richer cos of the heat and fuel.

But the thing that is worrying me is that we get a hiss and bubbles coming up in our expansion bottle in the morning when cold (well as cold as it gets here).. I read on here thats suggesting head gasket?! Please tell me otherwise!

Rich
 
Good to hear you are still going, and great to hear there is hissing and bubbles - that means you now have a properly presurised system.

Though if you hear the hissing in the morning when you remove the cap and the engine is cold it will be the head gasket. Oops. Still, no bad thing. We'll get you to Mongolia no trouble.

Definately set the radiator fan so that it runs all the time. I know it will be hot over there, but set the interior heater on hot(ish) and point it to the screen (and open the windows to let the heat out). The system will lose water, and when the vents go cold you'll know you need to stop and top up the water. Don't rely on the red light - that's a too late light that comes on way after the heater has gone cold, and not really intended for keeping the R4 running in Iran.

With my experience of this technique the time between stops gets shorter as you go along. A new gasket would probably sort the problem if you get the chance.
 
Thanks Malcolm,

Weve had the heater on hot all the time (in fact the knob has broke so its difficult to turn it to cool!) - its not too bad for us when moving but when in traffic its horrible!

We're not really losing water though, so the light comes on when there is still pleanty of water and the heater still blowing hot.

We're doing better than some though, i just read about a team in a punto that needed a new HG in luxemburg on the second day and then again in uzbekistan!

First up i just hope she makes it out of Iran otherwise we might lose our 1000 pound carnet deposit!
 
Normaly that light comes on after all is lost. Sounds like you've got a helpful light rather than a too late light. Keeping the water system properly bled of air and full of water will help a lot. If it is the head gasket the only trouble would be the time driving between fill ups. I reckoned I could do about 30 miles between fills when mine went,
 
The old girl is back and running like a dream!!!

The day after my last post we gave up and got a mechanic (who spoke no english) and he confirmed it was the HG. We heard of a team in uzbek who had a mechanic cut a custom gasket for them so i though this is what was going to happen. so he and his team started taking the car apart and then a while later a guy appeared with the exact part we needed!! we couldnt believe it, they must be the same as the old R5s i guess because there are loads of then in Iran (most under the name Saipa not Renault). I dont know how he immediately knew it was the same part though after a quick look, having never seen an R4 before it seemed!

..and the best thing, having 4 people work on it for 3/4 hours plus the new part cost us a total of 35 pounds!! and then we were invited back to tea and lunch, then his english speaking friend turned up and insisted we stay at his house that night! it was incredible!

We've done 3 days driving since in very high temps with no overheating!

Moral of the story, if you're gonna blow a head gasket on the way to mongolia, do it in Iran :)

We're in Bukara, uzbekistan now, heading to tajikistan in a couple of days.
Cheers for all your help once again, we'll keep you informed.

oh by the way, cant believe i nearly forgot this, we hadnt seen another team since istanbul, but when we pulled up at the iran/turkmenistan border crossing there was a spanish team there in a purple F6 van!
 
ok, IE's crash twice and lost my posts now so i'll try and summarise.

its not all as good as we thought..
1. temp and oil warning lights come on when we start, but go off with the pedal pressed even slightly,
so we can drive no probs at the mo, but they come on as soon as we stop (or going very slow). They also oddly go on and off exactly
together, as if they were one light.

2. hiss and bubbles from bottle again this morn, but we did go up 500m since yesterday morn - do you think this would cause enough pressure for this?

3. oil level seems to have gone up the last couple of days, also some slight leakage around the filler cap.

4. odd rattle coming from the front in 4th gear when pedal down 3/4+. this started same time as our original overheating issues, and stopped with the repair.
Now started again same day as 1.

Bad head gasket repair?
If we need it doing again do you have any specific instructions/advice for a better chance at success?
 
It was great to hear about the fix - sounds like that was an experience. Most little Renaults of the era would have used the same engine including the R5.

Temp and oil warning lights sound a bit bizarre. They test before you start and then should go out. If they are staying on I would guess a bad earth somewhere. Can't quite think where at the moment, but I'd guess gearbox to battery earth, or that earth at the front of the RHS front wing.

Hiss - maybe still the head gasket. Might last though. It's possible the head might need skimming. Did the mechanics heat the car, let it cool, then retorque the head?

If the oil looks all white and emulsified then I'd worry. Otherwise a leaky fuel pump could increase oil level. I'd monitor that one.

Rattle possibly the exhaust touching where it passes through the inner wing - they'd have disconnected the exhaust to change the head gasket.

If you managed 500km I'd guess things aren't too bad. I'd refill the radiator every morning (radiator top not expansion bottle) and then squeze the top hose to send any bubbles in the water up to the expansion bottle. If it doesn't loose water it ought to be OK.
 
That doesnt sound too bad then. The starnge light issue fixed itself yesterday, and we do have some bad contacts up front on the lights too so that couild well be the problem there.

Interesting you mention a leaky fuel pump because we have been smelling petrol a bit since yesterday but couldnt see a fault anywhere. Any other advice on checking that?

We're getting a horrible noise from the rear right suspension now, so gonna take a good look at that. probably not a big issue though, many teams have had their suspension welded in these parts very easily, i think its a very common thing on these roads!
 
hi
without wishing you further worries suggest that you may have low oil pressure which is why both lights come on together
it is possible that it is a faulty pressure sender on the engine block ,but combined with possible fuel now in the oil it will thin the oil down to the point that it may no longer lubricate it for very long in high tempuratures !!

suggest that you pull the dipstick out and see if it smells petrolly ? as a failed petrol pump diaphgram will gradually let petrol into the sump
(was the oil changed after head gasket replacement as thicker oil is better for hot countries )

i would normally expect to skim the head as aluminium distorts easily so am keeping my fingers crossed for you

hope everything works out for you all , good luck ---- paul
 
That's true enough - I think the lights do both come on when the oil pressure is low rather than just the oil light. Would also happen with a very low idle speed. Mr Reno's advice is good. Could be well worth an oil change to some local sludge.

Hope you are taking lots of photos along the way - would love to see them when you get back.
 
the oil does smell of petrol so we went to find a mechanic again today. They said they couldnt replace the pump (no frenchies here, we'd be laughing if we had a Lada though) but we got the oil changed there. we're using 20/50 , is there thicker stuff? Annoyingly he put way too much oil in so we have to drain some in the morning, and we dont have another copper washer so will try and souce a load of those too.

Can the pump be taken apart and inspected? Any bodge tips?! Amazingly the F6 team saw our website update about the pump today and phoned us to say they have a spare if we need it (they are just ahead of us) - but theirs is a 1977(ish) 1.1 I think - would the pump be compatible?
 
The F6 team isn't posting progress on here? Shame on them - do join in if you guys tune in again. It's great for us sitting here in base camp to hear about your adventures.

There are two types of pump for the 1108 engines. I'll need help here, but if you have a RHD car you've likely got a pump with the body below the mounting holes to clear the steering column. They tend to be push rod operated. LHD cars often have the body of the pump above the bolts and also have a curved crank handle sticking out that operates on the camshaft. To change between the two types you'd need the adapter that fits on the engine. 1977 would likely be an 850cc engine not 1108.

20/50 oil is what I use. It's the thickest stuff available over here. One botch would be to change the oil fairly regularly before it gets too thin.

Though you are lucky - there are mechanics over there who will likely be very creative. It might be possible for a bush mechanic to remove the pump, drill out all the rivets holding the pot to the body, replace the rubber diaphram (I have no idea how it is secured to the plunger in the pump) then bolt the thing back together again. Would need advice from someone else on this too - anyone clever about?
 
ours is an 88 LHD 956, theres is also LHD, think they said late 70s, and they definately told us its a 1.1, but its MUCH slower than ours so maybe they've been duped?! Theres is a Spanish one, in case that makes a difference.

So would our 956 use the same pump as a 850 or 1108? I cant describe it from memory unfortunately and havnt seen theirs.

I'll make sure they know about this site, they speak good english and are very friendly chaps so sure they'll say hello.
 
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