Ignition Timing on a F6 Engine C1E J 718

[DavidN]

Can you tell us more about that electronic ignition David?
...

Sure...

Here's a link to the seller's website.
http://www.hot-spark.com/1-Ducellier-Distributors.htm

 

[DavidN]

Quick update on the pointless ignition system.

Yesterday - after nearly one Year in use without any problem - it suddenly failed on me.
I was going about 80km/h on a busy country road and all of a sudden the car slowed down.
It was like someone just turned the ignition off while driving.
I was lucky enough and coasted to a stop on a small dirt track besides the road.

No signs of damage under the hood, no bad smell, nothing.
Battery was strong, fuel was there but the engine won't come to life again.

I called my wife, gave some specific information what parts and tools to bring and after an hour of waiting she finally arrived with all the spare parts and tools.

I changed the distibutor cap, the rotor, and the ignition coil without any luck.
So I pulled the whole distributor and put in the old FEMSA unit, checked the timing and.... the engine came to life immediately.

Conclusion is - the electronic ignition (made in China) is toast.

I'm not very happy with the behaviour of the FEMSA unit with it's traditional point-based ignition though.
Engine seems weak, runs all but smooth and at idle is very rough. Points, cap and rotor are new, dwell angle is tuned to specs, but still runs poor.

I think of changing to the 123Ignition system now.
But man, that one is pricey! :shock:

All in all I can say that the electronic ignition - as long as it is working - provides a superiour engine behaviour!
Engine runs smooth, powerful and very clean at all RPMs. So to go back to the outdated old system is pretty hard, once you are used to the benefits of the electronic ignition.

Cheers,

David

 

[malcolm]

The Femsa distributors running points are generally OK when they are running correctly. Though the vacuum advances often fail and this makes them run badly. Replacements aren't available for the Femsa, but if you can find a Ducellier spares are available for them.

The electric ones do generally work better than points ones. I'm running Luminition on my MGA which seems good. That replaced the lucas system which went out of tune very quickly. I've never run electric ignition on a R4 - just serviced the points once a year.

 

[alewis]

just a thought an electronic ignition booster could be a good idea, saves the points burning away and will give you a spark even when they are in terrible condition. I have a ford pop engine which doesn't even fire without the ignition booster in line.
(I am talking about the ones like this which go in between the points and the coil)
http://www.maplin.co.uk/ignition-amplifier-kit-3162

 

[DavidN]

123Ignition

Thanks guys!

I'm in contact with 123Ignition as the advance curve(s) they are listing for their Renault specific product is not an exact fit for the F6 engine.

Here's a link to my posting on the manufacturer's forum:
http://www.123ignition.nl/forum/read.php?f=4&i=2565&t=2565

I provided 123 with a data sheet that lists F6 specific advance curves (below) and one thing I can already say:
I'm surprised with the customer support so far (even on weekend days there seems to be some experienced tech support) and I think I will drop the 300 Euros and try the 123 system.

Any one on this board with some first hand experience with the 123Ignition in a R4?

I'm still in the dark what to do with my existing coil and the 1.8 Ohm resistor (see pic below) when I convert to the electronic unit...
What do you think?

Cheers,

David

 

[DavidN]

Hi folks!

I bought the 123Ignition!

According to Aryan who has a lot of knowlegde and experience with the 123Ignition two of the pre-set advance curves (#2 & #8) should nearly fit the timing of my F6 engine.

#2 is the R-244 D61 Renault 4 GTL / 688 curve
2200 rpm 10.5°
5000 rpm 34°

#8 is the R-294 D61 Renault 5 engine / 810-29 curve
2200 rpm 9.5°
5000 rpm 30°

The vacuum curves C33 and D61 are - according to Aryan - nearly identical.


I installed the 123Ignition and set it's advance curve to #8.
Engine is running clean and smooth but feels somehow powerless when accelerating.
Sometimes when I release the gas pedal to quickly it dies.

I'm still confused with the timing marks on the bellhousing!
Is there anybody who can confirm which mark is which BTDC???

To have the 123 Ignition working as supposed I have to set the idle advance @ 6degrees (+- 1) BTDC. But which mark would that be???

I'm confused and your help would be very much appreciated !!!

Thanks !!!


David

 

[angel]

TDC mark is the leftmost one (longer). I'm sure someone had asked this earlier and I remember that I had checked on an engine that I had on the bench then what the other marks mean. If you search you will find it.

That "powerless" feeling seems like not getting enough advance. You can first try the #2 curve (as it's the GTL one) and then advancing basic timing a little at a time (so that the entire advance curve moves up) and see what's happening.

 

[DavidN]

TDC mark is the leftmost one (longer). I'm sure someone had asked this earlier and I remember that I had checked on an engine that I had on the bench then what the other marks mean. If you search you will find it.

That "powerless" feeling seems like not getting enough advance. You can first try the #2 curve (as it's the GTL one) and then advancing basic timing a little at a time (so that the entire advance curve moves up) and see what's happening.

Thanks Angel !!!

According to your posting from 03-06-10 the three bottom marks are 0, 6 and 12 degrees.
I was just confused as I also got a different reply earlier in this thread which states different data:

I will try and change the advance curve of the 123Ignition to #2 first and see what happens.
It is a little inconvenient as the whole distributor has to be removed to set it to another curve. (A little bad design I think.)
Otherwise the 123Ignition is a pretty nice and well crafted little thing!

Cheers,

David

 

[AdamWilkes]

You are probably right.
I think I will careful aproach to the best timing using Malcolm's method, and beginning with 3° BTDC. Let's see how far I can advance the ignition.

David

hi - I have an '84 F6 withh the 1108 c1e 688 engine, and it has two ignition issues. One is the timing - at present it seems happy at 15 degrees btdc (!), with no pinking, but that is a bit scary considering the 'book' angles recommended to use. I use 95 ron unleaded with lead-replacement mixture a bit.
Second, the contacts can be set to 54-60 deg dwell but then the points gap is about 0.1mm ! Dwell is in the 40's at 0.4mm recommended gap. The car runs even at 0.1mm gap. Could the contact breaker be worn out? It looks almost new & with clean contact faces, but the rubbing block isn't always in contact with the cam, hence (maybe?) the dwell vs gap problem. Any similar experiences?

 

[mojobaby]

Hi Adam, dwell angle is the total number of degrees that the distributor shaft turns with the points in the closed position. If your points measure 0,1mm in this position and 0,4mm on the lobe of the shaft, then that means your points never close. Your car shouldn't even run.
Personally, I think that our cars parts are pretty worn and there is so much play that a dwell angle is difficult or even impossible to measure accurately. So I never even consider it.
Your 15 degrees Before TDC should also be adjusted for your engine to run correctly. It's bad for the engine!!

When I set my points gap, I loosen my distributor and turn it until the little "block" rest on the highest part of one of the 4 lobes of the distributor shaft. Only then can you loosen the screw and adjust the points gap to 0,4mm.

When you do your timing, make sure that the mark on the flywheel is to the right of the mark on your engine block or the bell housing. That's because your engine turns anti clockwise.
I usually set it about 10-12mm before the mark.

At this stage, your points should just be opening. turn your ignition on. Make sure that the little "block" in the distributor is just behind the lobe on the shaft and then turn the distributor clockwise to open the points.
As soon as you hear the click of the spark, then that's it.

I usually then start my car and make fine adjustments by ear. Hope that helps

 

[AdamWilkes]

hi mojo & thanks for your reply ! The 0.1mm points gap is when the points' rubbing block is on the high lobe of the cam (ie maximum opening), when set at 60 deg dwell (set dynamically with dwell meter). I think I understand dwell, and that insufficent dwell can result in a weak magnetic field generated in the coil, so a weak spark may be generated when the field collapses upon contacts opening. I believe contacts need to open sufficiently wide to prevent arcs across the points from scavenging the spark, again leading to a weak spark at the plugs. Amazing to me that 0.1mm gap allowed the engine to run, but well done to the condenser I guess!
The engine runs at 15 deg btdc, and quite well - though an ocassional quiet "pop" through the exhaust is possible at tickover. It is certainly smoother and more responsive than at 4 deg or so. I am using a new xenon strobe with settable advance angle; the flywheel TDC mark is way out of sight (yes, down off to the the right), at this setting. There is no audible pinking at any speed or load, unless I am missing it altogether!
I too made adjustments of the timing by ear, having had unacceptable results using the 'book' setting, and this is how I reached 15 deg (10 deg also works OK, and it is set back to that for now, until I receive the new set of points that are on order. Maybe that new points set will settle things....).
I think that the flywheel tdc mark is correct, as I changed the clutch (plus oil seals etc) not long ago and made sure to find and paint the tdc mark before re-mounting the flywheel/clutch. I'll let you know how it changes with new points set.