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Hi guys . Value for money .

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bigoldboy

Enthusiast
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179
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Spain
I bought a 1972 Spanish built Renault 4 s from 1972 . The car is close to being ready for an ITV in Spain (Spanish Reg) and before I spend any more time and money on it does anyone think it's worth bothering carrying on . It stands me at about 3000 euros .
 
Do post some photos (with the attach files link below where you write replies) and I'm sure people will post ideas. 1972 is a nice year and that sort of money doesn't seem out of place for a reasonable car. Are you feeling restoration regret?

I'm expecting to spend a little more than that on my 1987 F4 van this year. I wouldn't expect to get that back if I sold it, but I wouldn't want to sell so wouldn't get it back anyway. It's an interesting van and I like it but it's having no money spent on it for the 20 years after that!
 
bigoldboy said:
I bought a 1972 Spanish built Renault 4 s from 1972 . The car is close to being ready for an ITV in Spain (Spanish Reg) and before I spend any more time and money on it does anyone think it's worth bothering carrying on . It stands me at about 3000 euros .
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Jump in it and pretend to go on a picnic with someone special - enjoy that romance then get up the following morning and get that ITV thing and you are off with a massive smile on your face - All that is priceless
 
Hi @bigoldboy,
I might have said this before. And I agree with @JonathanT.
The Renault 4 is not an investment in money. It‘s an investment in love and emotion.
If you want to make money don’t buy a Renault 4. It will cost you shitloads of money.
But when you are finished with it, it will reward you with lots of love and smiles all around.
 
Once you can use it, you start having fun. I have a modern German car which I use to get to France. Its never attracted any attention, as you would expect. On the way to the tip one day my pal and I unexpectedly had a rush of blood to the wallet and bought an old Renault 4. It cost €1100. We have spent about €1500 on it, on some paint, bits and pieces etc. We drove it back to the UK, for a good service, an MOT, replaced brake hoses, new bits in the Dizzy, rubbers for the exhaust, bought a sacrificial wreck and used the interior and other bits, and then drove the car back to france where it now resides. Sold the carcass of the wreck for almost its purchase price, so cost neutral. Two HUGE driving adventures, FULL OF FUN!!!. Everywhere we go in France, people stop and talk. I learned on one of those, my dad had one, my first car, i had one as a Kid. Please park at the front, park next to me. Great Car... its endless. It has changed our enjoyment of France and our connection with the locals. Its one of the most positive things we have done. My wife loves it. We have enjoyed it so much we now have two more, one of which we will sell shortly.
The satisfaction of doing the car up, and driving it, is beyond words. At the end of the day, the car is worth £3500-£4000. So I have had all that enjoyment, its cost me £ 2500 or so, and its worth a bit more than I have paid. And this forum is another of the great enjoyments. Full of helpful people who give. They give great advice and you the confidence . Just go for it.
 
Within reason, money spent on a car doesn't come into it, because you can't put a price on the shear enjoyment of owning and driving a classic motor. It's the places you visit, and the interesting people you meet that makes it all worthwhile. Also once a mechanically simple car like a 4 is up and running, it doesn't cost a fortune to maintain, and is simple for the home mechanic to fettle. That was the ethos of Renault when the 4 was conceived.
So bigoldboy, just go for it, I'm sure you won't regret it.
 
There is talk, in various quarters, that a simple old car like the R4 and Morris Minor ( nowhere near as good ! ) will have a new life in the future. Historic vehicles cost little to insure, do not pay road tax, and can go anywhere. You do not even need to get an MOT, though I think it a good idea. As said they are simple and are within the capabilities of many to keep running cheaply. A modern car is almost impossible to re fettle, and parts can be catastrophically expensive. So the talk is that these old classic cars could have a new life as useable vehicles into the future, and be far greener than scrapping them and building any new car, with its battery, and the decommissioning of that battery, as well as all the plastic and bits brought from all over to put in the new car. So another reason to restore the car and get it driving.
 
Hmmm, as my professional life is spent dealing with and writing about one aspect of the classic car world (editor of Classic Porsche magazine), I feel your optimism is misplaced. The general feeling is, in fact, quite the opposite. Classic cars are in no way seen as being cars of the future. We are already used to mileage limitations on classic car insurance policies, and that is a minor taste of what is to come.

Classics are something of a thorn in the side of bodies such as the DVLA and DVSA - they are an emotive subject which won't go away. You'd think everybody likes old cars...except they don't. Manufacturers don't - they only want you to buy new cars. The government doesn't, because it makes nothing off them in tax, other than revenue from sales of petrol. And petrol's days are ultimately numbered, like it or not. Environmental groups don't like them, either – they don't see any difference between old and modern (except that new cars are generally less polluting...).

It is naive to think that owners of classic cars will be able to drive off into the sunset unhindered in any way. I would wager that within the next 10 years – probably less – you will be told you cannot drive more than, say, 3000 miles a year, and then maybe only at weekends, or to a prearranged event. How will that be checked if there is no MOT? ANPR cameras are an everyday method of tracking vehicles - whenever you go out on anything other than minor rural roads, you are being tracked.

Nowadays, the majority of Police cars have ANPR cameras fitted, which instantly inform officers on board that the car in front – or travelling in the opposite direction – is not taxed, insured or MOT’d. Again, I have no real problem with that. But it’s the prospect of what might come next that worries me.

In the Bible, there’s a saying in the Book of Job (I had to look it up…) which states that ‘The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away’ – and that’s how I see the future of classic car usage on our roads. Any vehicle over 40 years old is currently exempt of road tax and MOT, but that I am sure will come at a price. And that price will be restriction of use.

Up until recently in Belgium you could only take your classic car out for test drives within a radius of 25km from home, or drive it to and from organised classic car meetings – and then only during daylight hours. And although that has now changed to allow greater freedom of use, there is a feeling that this is temporary respite while new legislation is agreed upon as it was difficult to police without an adequate ANPR system in place.

In Paris cars registered before 1997 are prohibited from entering the city between 8am and 8pm on weekdays, although classic cars registered 30 years or more ago are still allowed to drive into the city – if my maths is right, that currently means that any car built between 1989 and 1997 will be banned. In effect they have become stateless. As with the London Congestion and Low Emission Zones, the only way to control this is by the use of ANPR cameras.

You can’t help but wonder what effect that might have on current values as there is every possibility that Parisian restrictions will be applied nationwide in the not too distant future. Won't happen? I'm not holding my breath.

In the meantime, let's enjoy our classics while we can – this is (probably) as good as it's going to get.
 
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KeithS said:
Hmmm, as my professional life is spent dealing with and writing about one aspect of the classic car world (editor of Classic Porsche magazine), I feel your optimism is misplaced. The general feeling is, in fact, quite the opposite. Classic cars are in no way seen as being cars of the future. We are already used to mileage limitations on classic car insurance policies, and that is a minor taste of what is to come.

Classics are something of a thorn in the side of bodies such as the DVLA and DVSA - they are an emotive subject which won't go away. You'd think everybody likes old cars...except they don't. Manufacturers don't - they only want you to buy new cars. The government doesn't, because it makes nothing off them in tax, other than revenue from sales of petrol. And petrol's days are ultimately numbered, like it or not. Environmental groups don't like them, either – they don't see any difference between old and modern (except that new cars are generally less polluting...).

It is naive to think that owners of classic cars will be able to drive off into the sunset unhindered in any way. I would wager that within the next 10 years – probably less – you will be told you cannot drive more than, say, 3000 miles a year, and then maybe only at weekends, or to a prearranged event. How will that be checked if there is no MOT? ANPR cameras are an everyday method of tracking vehicles - whenever you go out on anything other than minor rural roads, you are being tracked.

Nowadays, the majority of Police cars have ANPR cameras fitted, which instantly inform officers on board that the car in front – or travelling in the opposite direction – is not taxed, insured or MOT’d. Again, I have no real problem with that. But it’s the prospect of what might come next that worries me.

In the Bible, there’s a saying in the Book of Job (I had to look it up…) which states that ‘The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away’ – and that’s how I see the future of classic car usage on our roads. Any vehicle over 40 years old is currently exempt of road tax and MOT, but that I am sure will come at a price. And that price will be restriction of use.

Up until recently in Belgium you could only take your classic car out for test drives within a radius of 25km from home, or drive it to and from organised classic car meetings – and then only during daylight hours. And although that has now changed to allow greater freedom of use, there is a feeling that this is temporary respite while new legislation is agreed upon as it was difficult to police without an adequate ANPR system in place.

In Paris cars registered before 1997 are prohibited from entering the city between 8am and 8pm on weekdays, although classic cars registered 30 years or more ago are still allowed to drive into the city – if my maths is right, that currently means that any car built between 1989 and 1997 will be banned. In effect they have become stateless. As with the London Congestion and Low Emission Zones, the only way to control this is by the use of ANPR cameras.

You can’t help but wonder what effect that might have on current values as there is every possibility that Parisian restrictions will be applied nationwide in the not too distant future. Won't happen? I'm not holding my breath.

In the meantime, let's enjoy our classics while we can – this is (probably) as good as it's going to get.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the really informative communication . We live in a small village of Montes De Malaga and just want to use our classic within about 40 k of our home . Now here's a question for you , our Renault 4s was first registered in 1971/2 so do I have to tax and ITV it ?
Regards , Martin
 
interesting discussion
yes I have reservations on future motoring legislation as Keith says but no one can truly predict the future and 3000 euros can easily be spent on wine tobacco or gambling in one year
buying a new car from dealer will lose 3000 euros if you change your mind and decide to sell and buy something else
I say you are a long time dead and once your R4 is useable and any snags ironed out you won't regret it
 
owning a classic for me has never ever been about the money, especially with classics that are daily drivers, getting somewhere slowly with the added chance of breaking down makes every trip more exciting! I make stained glass for a living, they're not as energy efficient or as good security wise as new double glazed upvc, they are labour intensive to make, need looking after, but they are beautiful & a part of architectural heritage, classics have the same attraction for me. I know there's been electric conversions of the old VWs so maybe that's the road our classics might have to go, quite tempting at the moment with my engine!
 
bigoldboy said:
Thanks for the really informative communication . We live in a small village of Montes De Malaga and just want to use our classic within about 40 k of our home . Now here's a question for you , our Renault 4s was first registered in 1971/2 so do I have to tax and ITV it ?
Regards , Martin/QUOTE]



Hi regarding your tax and ITV question, the answer is yes you do to current ITV regs for year of car ( emission wise for year of manufacture, doesn’t need fogs lights or anything else that was not fitted as original, anything fitted post production must work to regulations, a healthy 4 engine sails the emissions if correctly tuned).
It is road legal as a ‘normal’ car doing it this way round, 4’s are not expensive to insure here in Spain, or tax, your milage is only limited to where you want to go, ie. Infinity and beyond.
To register it as an ‘ historico’ and get all the ‘ benefits’ of it being such is a complicated and lengthy process which is not cheap to do ( believe me, I have done this with a vehicle here myself, only once...), the ITV is not the same as UK, as in the test period is down to the inspector of ‘ historico’, this can be from 6 month to 4 years depending on his eye over car, so ITV charges may still have to be accounted into the cars life with you potentially anyway, the insurance limits you to 3000 a year, which very, very soon leaves you with a car that you just cannot drive ( 2 trips to town and back a week only and your out of KM in 7months or less without using it for anything else), you get free road tax ( yipee!, but tax costs €40 a yr. for my 1108 cc 85 F6), but the process will cost you nothing short of €500 in total plus time (time measured in months, not hours), its a lot easier just to treat it as a normal car and sucker up tax and ITV, lot less headache, if your car has been untaxed for a period, ie off the road and forgotten, you may be liable for back tax to last date it was on the road whichever way you go.
The ONLY thing is on your ITV as an ‘Historico’ you are exempt from the emission part of test, marked on the logbook that comes after ‘historico’ registration, which as stated, you will have no problems with anyway, Oh, you can drive it into the bigger emission regulated cities on historico, not normally register
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Thank you so much everyone I feel much better now about buying (Betty) our R4s . I am still curious as to whether I need to get an ITV or not here in Malaga region . The ITV laws are pretty sketchy .
 
Hi Martin, it's the same over here for 40 year old cars that now don't need an mot, but for the small charge of around £50 can still obtain one, its peace of mind that your car is roadworthy, and not a danger to you or other road users. It's a no brainer really, so I would get that ITV.
Regards Brian.
 
KeithS said:
Hmmm, as my professional life is spent dealing with and writing about one aspect of the classic car world (editor of Classic Porsche magazine), I feel your optimism is misplaced. The general feeling is, in fact, quite the opposite. Classic cars are in no way seen as being cars of the future. We are already used to mileage limitations on classic car insurance policies, and that is a minor taste of what is to come.

Classics are something of a thorn in the side of bodies such as the DVLA and DVSA - they are an emotive subject which won't go away. You'd think everybody likes old cars...except they don't. Manufacturers don't - they only want you to buy new cars. The government doesn't, because it makes nothing off them in tax, other than revenue from sales of petrol. And petrol's days are ultimately numbered, like it or not. Environmental groups don't like them, either – they don't see any difference between old and modern (except that new cars are generally less polluting...).

It is naive to think that owners of classic cars will be able to drive off into the sunset unhindered in any way. I would wager that within the next 10 years – probably less – you will be told you cannot drive more than, say, 3000 miles a year, and then maybe only at weekends, or to a prearranged event. How will that be checked if there is no MOT? ANPR cameras are an everyday method of tracking vehicles - whenever you go out on anything other than minor rural roads, you are being tracked.

Nowadays, the majority of Police cars have ANPR cameras fitted, which instantly inform officers on board that the car in front – or travelling in the opposite direction – is not taxed, insured or MOT’d. Again, I have no real problem with that. But it’s the prospect of what might come next that worries me.

In the Bible, there’s a saying in the Book of Job (I had to look it up…) which states that ‘The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away’ – and that’s how I see the future of classic car usage on our roads. Any vehicle over 40 years old is currently exempt of road tax and MOT, but that I am sure will come at a price. And that price will be restriction of use.

Up until recently in Belgium you could only take your classic car out for test drives within a radius of 25km from home, or drive it to and from organised classic car meetings – and then only during daylight hours. And although that has now changed to allow greater freedom of use, there is a feeling that this is temporary respite while new legislation is agreed upon as it was difficult to police without an adequate ANPR system in place.

In Paris cars registered before 1997 are prohibited from entering the city between 8am and 8pm on weekdays, although classic cars registered 30 years or more ago are still allowed to drive into the city – if my maths is right, that currently means that any car built between 1989 and 1997 will be banned. In effect they have become stateless. As with the London Congestion and Low Emission Zones, the only way to control this is by the use of ANPR cameras.

You can’t help but wonder what effect that might have on current values as there is every possibility that Parisian restrictions will be applied nationwide in the not too distant future. Won't happen? I'm not holding my breath.

In the meantime, let's enjoy our classics while we can – this is (probably) as good as it's going to get.
Click to expand...
Sadly I have to agree. Over the next 20-30 years the government will want all internal combustion engined cars off the road. I can foresee the types of restrictions you cite plus ones for moderns such as very high fuel duty and VED increased to become prohibitive on high rated cars (like my XK currently at an eye watering but still worthwhile amount). The halcyon days of motoring may be dwindling, so get out in the Quatrelle while you can!
 
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