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R4 vs Dauphine 1959

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Shielob

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Looking for some help here. I have just bought a 1959 Dauphine that has been fitted with a R4 Engine. Im told this now has 3 reverse gears and 1 forward :shock:

So have to asume the R4 engine runs the other way or that somone has put the dif in the Dauphine in the wrong way round (if you can do this).

Anybody have any info on this subject - would be most greatful.

Ta EAD
 
Firstly, does the car run and are you able to test out the gearbox? I can see no problem fitting a R4 engine to a Dauphine gearbox, but did the person fit the R4 gearbox as well. I'm not sure if the gearboxes are similar, but whether the unit is fitted in the front or the rear should make no difference to the forward motion. As to whether the engine runs backwards is totally beyond me. The only engine that will run backwards is a 2 stroke. Regarding the diff, it may be possible to reverse it, but why would anybody want to? Maybe someone else has more experience of Dauphins than me, but my thinking is that the original Dauphine engine and the R4 engine were very similar.

Steve
 
R4 engine to a Dauphine gearbox

I have not taken delivery of the car so I cant say for sure but the bloke I am getting it from says there are 3 reverse and 1 forward gear. It may be that the gear selector is badly worn and so he is not managing to select the forwards correctly.

I was just wondering wheter the original Dauphin engine did something really wierd like running counter clockwise. I have no knowledge of these cars at the moment but think I am about to learn quite quickley!!!!

I think the later cars had 4 speed boxes which seems to suggest they were the same as the R4.

EAD
 
Don't know a great deal about Dauphines other than to say there is nothing astonishing about the original engine. It's fairly simple stuff. As to why it runs with four reverse gears and one forward is anybodies guess. I think your best bet would be to contact www.renaultclassiccarclub.com and probably join, Dauphines are their sort of thing so should be able to help.

Good luck with it, I have a feeling you might need a bit of luck!
 
I suggest you take delivery of the car first and then try and work out what's amiss. I went down the garage and looked at my old R4 GTL gearbox and the diff can be reversed. It sounds as if the previous owner of your Dauphine has some suspect mechanical abilities.

By all means join the Renault Classic Car Club, but they don't have a forum to discuss this type of problem (yet).

Good luck

Steve
 
Thanks for the input - I should get the car towards the end of the week so I can update you.

I'm getting nervous about the amount of LUCK that people are wishing me !!!!

EAD
 
Took delivery of the car on wednesday and it actually started although it ran like a diesel.

I drained the old petrol and the difference is just unbelievable and it sounds really sweet now.

It is a R4 engine with the 800 prefix, R4 carb and manifold. Isn't that manifold setup quite amazing there must be a few horse power lost via that setup.

Anyway I can confirm that it does indeed have 3 Reverse and one forward gear. The giveaway is that the 1 forward gear whines when under way so I reckon the diff has been replaced on the wrong side of the pinion. I don't think I can fit a R4 gearbox as the gearshift comes out the front of the Dauphine box as opposed to the top of the 4 box.

Also the Dauphine has swing axels which bolt on to the side of the gearbox with 6 bolts using carriers - it looks like these might fit onto a 4 box but I don't have one to try it out on.

Anyone know of somone arround Edinburgh that might have a 4 box in bits?
 
Your Dauphine should be a R-1090 model. Look at the chassis plate to confirm this. The Dauphine was the successor to the 4CV and shared the same mechanical layout. That is an 747cc engine with a 3 speed and reverse gearbox. Looking at the engine in the 'boot', the manifold should be on the left hand side with a fan at the front and then the radiator.

If the engine has been replaced with an early (1960's) R4 engine, it's likely to be an 845cc lump. The fact that the engine has been changed has nothing to do with your interesting gearbox.

As you say, it appears that the diff has been reversed for some odd reason. The reason why your 'first' gear whines is because it's the true reverse gear. These are usually straight cut gears and and most older cars whine in reverse anyway.

As I said in my earlier posting, it appears that a previous owner slipped up somewhere. You will need to remove the engine and gearbox and turn the diff round the right way. This needs to be done properly with the right amount of backlash and you may need some new gaskets and oil seals. You would be advised to get hold of a workshop manual and data sheets before attempting to work on the car.

Do join the Renault Classic Car Club and the Renault Owners Club because there are plenty of Dauphin owners in their ranks and they will be able to help you with anything you need.

Steve
 
The Dauphine (747 and 845cc) engines turned in the opposite direction to the earlier R4s (but the same as GTLs with the 1108 engine). R4 engines turned the way they did to allow the use of a starting handle (and dauphines also used a starting handle, at the other end of the engine). Both Dauphines and R4s have the gearbox in front of the engine. When the Sierra 1108 cc engine was offered in the R6 and R4 (GTL) they didn't bother changing the direction from the old renault 8s and 10s as they didn't fit a starting handle.

Unless you do something drastic with the gearshift you won't be able to use an R4 gearbox. I wouldn't recommend it. However if my memory serves correctly you can swap the crownwheel and diff carrier around in the dauphine gearbox to reverse the direction to suit the R4 engine.
Cheers
 
Thanks - If I understand you right then the R4 GTL 1108 engine is the only R4 engine that will fit in the Dauphine without having to change the crown wheel over. Is this correct ?

You don't happen to have a R4 GTL 1108 engine do you ? I think it may be simpler to change the engine than get involved modifying the G-Box.

Do you know what engine numbers I should look for?

EAD
 
I must admit that I'm having a big problem in fathoming out how a 4 stroke engine can be made to run in the opposite direction. I'm having a bigger problem understanding why Renault would want to build an engine that runs backwards for the sake of having the diff the right way round, and to enable the driver to use a starting handle.

Please can someone educate me into the principles of a 4 stroke engine that works in the opposite direction to 'normal' engines. In the 20 odd years spent as a mechanic, all the 4 stroke engines I worked on ran in the same direction.

Thanks

Steve
 
OK- here goes. Dauphine (and R8 and R10 and R4 GTL engines) all have the gearbox in front of the engine. When you are at the back of the car facing forward, the crankshaft turns clockwise. You then (for 4CVs, dauphs, etc) have a regular urge to turn a crank handle because they have crummy 6 volt electrical equipment. You want the crankhandle to turn clockwise because cranking in the opposite direction is a very strange, counter-intuitive experience and even back then Renault knew there was only so far they could go in being different! The crank handle dog on those engines poked through a seal in the rear timing case. When they made the 5 bearing engine they kept everything the same.
The direction of rotation is physically determined by two things: the relationship of the cam lobes to each other and the crank, and the direction in which the skew drive to the distributor turns. The distributor is (usually) set up to turn clockwise (looking down on it), and it allows distributor manufacturers to make a variety of units based on a single base design for advance/retard gear etc. It also allows you to play around with different distributors to some extent if you ever wanted to.

To reverse the engine direction a la dauphine to R4 you have to:
-have a "mirror image" cam shaft profile which looks the same but is made "opposite hand",
-reverse the lead on the pair of skew gears so that a cam rotating in the opposite direction doesn'yt change the direction of the dizzie.
-reverse the pitch of any oil return threads on seals on cam, crank etc.
-it isn't practical to change the affected parts, they would be replaced.

Re the R4 engine in a dauphine:
You are pretty much stuck with using the same gearbox because of the gear shift and also the mounting onto the chassis subframe and the method of attachment of the half-shafts. People have put R8/10 gearboxes in but its not simple.
With the engine, I think you probably could replace it with a GTL motor (I don't have one and I'm in Melbourne-sorry!) , there would most likely be some messing about with clutch throws, linkage, thrust bearing etc as well as locating the radiator, fan, engine mounts etc.
You could also rebuild the existing motor with dauphine crank, cam and starter motor but not really worth it unless you are really keen on originality (and hand cranking!).

Honestly, I think swapping the crown and pinion around in the gearbox is going to be the quickest and easiest way to do it.

Hope this helps
 
Thanks for your interesting explanation. I need to go away and completely re-assess my thinking on the directional rotation of these Renault engines.

Steve
 
Oops- Steve, I should have added, when the dauphine engine was converted for the R4, there was no longer a seal and dog in the timing cover, and the dog was put at the front of the gearbox, acting through the primary shaft.

The direction of rotation was therefore changed to allow normal hand cranking from the front of the car. The crank handle persisted on the 313, 328 (both 3 speed) and 334 (4 speed, dog-leg 1st gear) gearboxes, (although only vans with 334 gearboxes had the starting dog. These gearboxes were all derived to some extent from the 4cv and dauphine ones but none of the casings were common as far as I know. The saloons had the starting dog blanked off, although they still had the hole in the bumper). You still got the crankhandle as it also works the jack.

The 3 bearing engines continued with that direction of rotation right up until the end which I believe was around 1986. The R1123 then was replaced by the R112C which used a small bore sierra engine.

The 354 gearbox was introduced in various forms for the 6, 5 and 4 in both the 3 bearing (ventoux) engine and 5 bearing (sierra) engine. They never had a starting dog as by that time all the Renaults had 12 volt electrics and perhaps a starting handle was bad for the marketing image by then.

On the three bearing engines the 354 gearbox had an opposite hand crown and pinion to the 5 bearing engine cars. I should have pointed out that prior to the 354 gearbox, the crown and pinion shafts were coplanar, ie you could swap the crown from one side to the other and it would still mesh.

On the 354 they went to a bigger crownwheel, this meant the set became handed and also they had to put a bulge on one side of the gearbox backplate on the 3-bearing engine cars. By the way, if anyone has a steel backplate for a 354 gearbox, I would be interested.

This has probably bored the #@%*! out of everyone by now. Sorry. I won't do it again. Oh alright, I probably will.
 
Thanks Pieter,

I too will have to digest your words of wisdom.

I have had a look under the car and can certainly say that the gearbox is at least an inch thick in oil mud etc. so there is no way that it has been serviced / fiddled with for some time.

I certainly dont like the idea of swapping internals of the engine but I think if I can find an 1108 engine this will be simpler than taking the box / diff to bits as I dont know what the availibility of the seals etc is like. There are also subtleties like the off set of the gudgeon pin if you really want to get into detail.

As far as engine direction is concerned you can make one spin in any direction you like as long as you compensate for valve timing and ignition as you point out. I think the Citron SM engine might also be a "funny".

Colin Chapman of lotus fame used to use a "reverse camshaft" in his Austin 7 based racing cars - this was to get 4 inlets and 2 exhaust ports rather than 2 inlets and 4 exhausts like the R4. I'm not sure if this span the wrong way or was reprofiled to compensate.

I used to be in Auckland - I dont want the rest of you thinking antipodeans are geeks.

So does anyone else have a 1108 engine ?
 
I've just been looking at some reference books I'm selling and there's lots of info about the Dauphine and the early 1960's Renault 4.

As I said previously, your Dauphine should be a R1090 model. The correct engine type is the Ventoux 670-1 of 845cc. The early R4's used this engine also albeit slightly modified. The firing order on both engines is 1342 with Number 1 cylinder at the flywheel end. There are exploded views of the gearbox (type 289) and it is nothing like a R4 box. The carb should be a Solex 28IBT.

If you need any more data, please let me know asap as the books may be sold at the weekend.

Steve
 
Thanks - I have managed to get a Dauphine workshop manual and had a look through it - Unfortunatly nowhere does it say "Direction of rotation" or anything about taking care to put thhe diff in the right way round although there are pictures.

I think I have decided to go for the 1108 engine as getting involved in the diff, swingarms, driveshafts etc. looks a quite a lot of work if I can cure it by an engine transplant especialy as that has to come out anyway.

I found the engine plate in a box of bits. Type 670 -1 Number 626264* - long since gone I fear.

Thanks
 
Hi Shielob,

I've been watching this thread with interest - it really is unfortunate to have a car with 3 reverse gears.

To muddy the waters a little - I swapped an 850 engine for an 1100cc engine in Florence the Renault 4TL. I can remember the 1100cc engine block being a little bigger and I had to hammer bits of bodywork out of the way to accomodate the new engine. The fuel pump got in the way of the handbrake mechanism as well. Otherwise it was an easy swap with the engine mountings being in the correct place etc. I used the 1100cc gearbox as well (sounds like that was a good move), so don't know if there are any problems mating the later engine to the earlier gearbox.

Guess the best plan is to get hold of an engine and try the swap. I have a spare 1100cc engine but it has a burnt valve.
 
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